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Northern Star (1837-1852), 20th May 1843, Edition 4 of 5, Page 8, Untitled Article

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      CONSOLIDATION OF THE TURNPIKEROADS AND HIGHWAYS . OUGGESTIONS for Consolidating the Fonda and KJ Management of the Turnpike-Roads and High * w * ys within the Barough of Leeds , and placing them under the direction of the Town Council , being , 1 st , an Appendix to a Report which R . Bayldon was directed to make to tbat body as to the probable Financial Effects that would arise to the different Townships within the Borough of Leeds in the event of the 19 ih Clause of the New Turnpike Bill passing into a Law , and

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      THE FACTORIES BILL . \ meeting of membra of Parliament and gentlemin connected wnh the manufacturing districts was b > Id on Taesdav , May 9 , at the British Hotel ockspur-Btreet , London , for the purpose of hearae th ^ opinions of millowners , with reference to the Factories Bill now before Parliament . From 70 to 80 persons assembled , amorg who we recognised the following Members of Parliament : —Mr . Ainsworth , Mr . Broeklehaist , Mr . W . T . Ererton , Mr- Fielden , Mr Wm . Fielden , Mr . Ferrand , Mr . Greenall , Mr . "W Hardy Mr . Hindley , General Johnson , Sir John Johnstoue , Bar t ., W . S . Lascelles , Mr . J . W . Patten , Mr Strati , Mr . Stansiield , Sir George Strickland . Bart ., Mr . ToUemaehe , Mr . Walker , Mr . Wilbr * h * in , and Mr . Grimsditch . , On the motion of Mr . Hardy , M . P ., the Hon John Stnart Wortley , M . P ., was called to the chair .

      The Chaibmas said , he considered it his duty at once to acquiese in the proposal that ' be should take the chair , inasmuch as there was no objection made to it . As he had been called unexpectedly to that position . it woold not become him to offer observations upon the nature of the meeting other than to say , that he trusted he should be of use in conducting the business for which thej were assembled . ( CheeTS . ) He was sorry ihat he was called to occupy the chair as a substitute for his friend , Mr . Wm . Beckett , whose name stood at the head of the circular which has been issued , and was to haTe presided , but who "was now so nEWtll sa to be unable to attend ; he held in his hand a rote from Mr . Beckett " , expressing hi ? disappointment i . i being unable to be present , as be was

      anxious to hear the opinion of the Factory masters upon the provisions of the Factories' Bill . Having saad so much with respect to the circumstances in which he stood , he thought it would be more conduciTe to the business of the day , if he should leave the farther proceedings in the hands of those who had devoted thair time and trouble to con-Tening this meeting ; they would know better than he how to lay the business before them , and be could only say , sp far as he was concerned , that if i ; should be in his power to lend any assistance towards themain object of the meeting , or to take any step which should tend to the satisfactory settlement of this most important qnestion of the honrs of labour of young persons , it would afford him the highest satisfaction to do so .

      Mr . WM . Ra-XD , of Bradford , Yorkshire , » aid he trusted in the first place be should be permitted , as a factory muter , pfeo bad long taktn a deep interest in the subject of factory legislation , to tbank those members ot Parliam ? nt who had convened this nieeiing , and for inviting ratmbera eonntcted ¦ with those couDties where manufactures -where carried on , and for inviting factory gentleman who ¦ were more immediately connected with any measure for the legislation of factories —( bear . ) He trusted that he bsd too deep a ser . se of propriety , and wts too well aware ol bis otto jtt jiv . ptrtency to drag the cieeting through the history of ficury legislation . There bad been no fewer than seven or eight factory bills , and as many abortive attempts at improving these bLU , and he thought that hitherto fact

      alone would prove that factory legislation had not been satisfactory . He thought the present meeting offered the finest prospect f » r a tatisfactcry settlement of this question , that had tT ? r yet presented itself . He was sure that the object tf the Government could only be to pass & bill which she > iid be heartily co-operated in by the factory masters wN > would assist the Government in carrying it out in all its provisions ; and he was snre rach a measure could only be accomplished with the assistance and advice of practical Ken ; and be trusted the issue of this meeiirg -would be the adoption of a law by the Govemmuit ef this ccuatry , which should be a blessing to the fsctoxy districts . "With these few remarks he would . express his opinion that the present bill before the Hsuse" of Commons , bore the character and -wocld shsxe the fate of all its predecessors . It wonld be an unsatisfactory bilL He bad come to that conclusion after carefully reading

      it over ; and he now came to express the reasons which had led him to that conclusion . The object of the Mil waa the regulation of the employment of children and young persons in factories , and for the better education of children in the factories . In order to effect this object the bill divided the work people into classes ; the first class comprising those from eight to thirteen years of age , and the second , cla- 's tbu-e from thirteen to eighteen as affected males , atsd thirteen to twenty-one as effected females . The first claw was to Work half time , or six hours a day ; the second class waa to work twelve hours actual labour per day . The first dam waa to go to school a certain number of hours in each day during their employment—not when they were unemployed—ttwy were required to . brine certificates from the schoolmaster of having complied with this regulation , and unless they did so they could not » taa to work on the following Monday . It appeared to him thst this was in itself z . n enactment which

      Weald very seriously tend to tht non-employment of tfcose children . It was his firm conviction that tt&t eaactmeut , coupled with many others -which te would not now enumerate , was enough to ensure their bo ~ - eaiployment . He held in his hand a psper signe-. " : RH . Gregg , the Chairman of the Association of Millowcers in Manchester , stating that sncii were the pains and penalties attached to that bill with regard to the employment of children , that it was their opinion that s&eb as they would not be employed at all . Then he ( Mr . Kaiid ) wonld ask if they were not employed at all , if the expesce of their education were to be provided for out of their wages as the Bill enacted , how -were they u > obtain edncation at all ? He for his own part would say bat there was no possibility of education unles 3 there

      was a possibility of employment , and there was no poi-¦ ibility of employment coupled with these vexatious enactments . He thought then the issue as regarded that class would be total idleness up to 13 , coupled with ignorance ; and he would ask Hon . 11 embers in teat room whether the state of society in Manchester , Glasgow , and Yorkshire , woold not present an awfc ! picture with all the population up to 13 unemployea and uneducated ? It was the nature of lads if they were not doing well to be doing ill ; hfi thanght there eon'd not be a greater curse inflicted on them than tha * of dooming them to idleness . ( Hear , bear . ) He had written to one of the junior partners in his own concern to know what bad been the operation of the relay system , and he had replied that three-fourths of the children under 13 b& 4

      been dismissed ; and that he was looking out for sub-B&tutw for the remaining one-fourth . ( Heir , hear .: If such were the case in bia neighbourhood , what was the ease in Glasgow ? Mr . Gre ^ g * aid he would call attention to the fact thst since the introduction of tie Act creating the system © f working by relays , the children under thirteen years of age had been almost Jl dismissed , ic Glasgow he believed Done ( the word " nont ' underlined ) were employed under that age , and very few in othsrpartB of Scotland , ( hear , hear , )" and the two faetory districts of England of Mr . Horner and Mr . Saucers the cumber had fallen from 3 S . 941 in 3 S 35 , to 24 . 000 acd odd in 1839 , and in Mr . Horner ' s district it bad fallen from 11 000 to 7 , 000 since then . iHesri They ha < i not fcten able to obtain returns from the other

      districts , but the reduction in their nnmtars if as in every district very gT&st . The almost certain operation of tke present bill , he did not hesitate to say , would be the withdrawal of ch -Mr * = n altogether frcm -well-regulated mills , and thtiT total deprivation of employment The mere matter of a redaction in the wages would offer do Inducement titfetr to tie parent to send them or the master to em pi y item , compared -with the severe regulations to which they rendered themselves liable by employing them ; and Parliament would ficd itself in the course of a year cr two in the predicament of having paase-1 a law providing for the regulation of a class of children which the law would have thrown out of the sphere of lahcir—( heer , hezr . And yet after that statement had been nside fcnj * n they said they wocld

      be able to cencece that p : rt _ i-f the bill ; they said ?• We don't -wish to emploT children younger than nite ; or from nine to thirteen mere than six and half hiurs . " They did concede tb-m ; bnt how J X » t by adopting them , but by rejecting them . Ttey said they woa " not employ them . TV as that the kind of concession the Government wanted ? Xon-eciployment and non-instruction . Or was it that the Government sought to improve the minds and morals of that class ? He ( Mr . Band ) begged to say that tfce tfltct of this Jaw would be ignorance ^ sd idleness np to thirteen . That wis a spectacle for Members of Parlian > t : i » to look at ! Was It not enough to fill the mind of every reflecting man with alarm -o ? r , and tvea every uircfleeting mind ¦ with alarm by and bye ? What was tte prospect with

      regard to the second cluss—they we ; e to work twelve boars 3 day actual labour , independent of the time for meals and going to and retur&iBg from work . He would ask any gentleman in tfczt lo-mi : f he cculd lay his hand upon hi * heart and see a population uneducated and uninstmcted up to the age o' thirteen then taken to labour of that duration ; he ¦*¦; u ' . d ask if that wonld not perpetuate ignc-nince np to twenty-use ? He said that wonld be the inevitable rest-it : tte first class would be disqualified from education for -srarit of employment , and the Eecond clsss for want of time— , Lond cheer *} . His intention w ^ s not to appeal to the feelings of any gentleman , but to hie common sense , and he ¦ woold Bay that the issue of this Bill would be , in a few words , up to thirteen , ignorance snd idleness combined .

      "Op to twenty-one excessive toil and no instruction . If that , then , were the inevitable it * nlt of this bill , he would ask if \ % y ^ a ne which oucht to r asr . He said it ought not to pass , but he should net be performing his duty in coming to London to point out ths defects of tills bill if he did not also point oot a pl ^ n which appeared to him to be deserving of attention . He had thought » f a plan , and he wonia give his reasons in Kjpport of it He did not mean to Eay that his was the only plan that would be beneficial ; he was open to conviction on the matter , and he trusted he bhould never obstinately adhere to any particular nostrum of Mb © wT»— ( bear , bear ) . But , now , suppose for a moment

      that the relay system -were adopted , what wonld be the end of it ? Why they would bring op to & calling twice the namber of persons who s . t the age cf thin * tn could find employment at it If in his own establishment he had fifty relay children , whez they arrived at the age of thirteen he could but employ twenty-five of them , and he weuld have to turn adrift the other twenty-five , who would act aa an incubus upon the labour market for the remainder of their d 3 js , pressing span those employed towards reducing their wagee . Such would be the effect of the relay system , and so he had come to the conclusion that the relay system , it carried out , would be productive of most serious and

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      disaBtieus cnstqaeuctB—( hear , bear ) . And if it were not carried out the children would have no education . How then could they escape the two results of these two systems ? He would now beg to state the plan which would meet his own views . He thought that a proper Factory Bill should embrace the following points , and no others . It should embrace the age of admission into the mills ; the duration of labour in the mills ; it should provide for the time for meals within the mills ; for protection from exposed and dangerous machinery , undtr the judgment of practical men to say what wai so , —not of every factory inspector , but of practical men ; also provide for the washing and proper attention to the cleanliness of the establishment ; it should be short , simple , and practical—( hear ,

      hear)one of which labour should not be so contracted as to be worthless to the employer , ner too long , bo as to interfere with the moral and physical welfare of the parties engaged . Those were the three great points , and he thought it desirable that labour should be uniform in ita duration . Having regard to these points theu , not forcing upon parties toil which they were unable to sustain , or labour so contracted as to be of no advantage to the employer , he bad come to the concluaion that the best age of admission into the mills was at the age of ten years—( hear }—he mentioned ten because the whole amount of medical evidence proved that at that age , with proper Infcerv&ls for meals , they could enter the mills , if the labour were not too long continued ¦ and he recommended that they should not

      labour more than ten hours actual labour per day , for the who . e of the mill workers up to the age of twentyone years ; after that age they were placad beyond the limits of legislative Inteiference , they were adults and free agents ; but whilst they were not free agenU , and a » d whilst others might contract for them , he , for one , would not consent to subject them to a toil which must in after years raise a spirit of hostility againBt their friends and masters , who made them do it—( bear . ) He wonld recommend , then , that they should enter the mills at ten years of age , and work ten hours a day , and that was a length of labour which , be thought , was compatible with some little improvement in evening schools—( hear- ) It might b » objected that these parties would not go to these schools , but be thought they would . He knew that after working twelve hours a day , the

      children went to Sunday Schools every Sabbath ; he feared it was indeed a remarkable circumstance , but such were the habits of the young people , that they voluntarily we * nt to school upon the Sunday , though they had no recreation during the wetk ; taking this into consideration , he did thick that with tea hours labour , they would , to some extent , attend evening Schools . ( Hear ) He might perhaps be asked what he proposed with regard to education ; he would own that to be a most difficult sutyect , a subject for the gentlemen to consider , and not for the factory ma&ters , but be thought they were bound so to conduct their establishments as not to deprive them of the opportunity of learning something , and he tfeought that wnployitvg the children but ten hours a day , leaving eff work at six , would go far towards attaining that ^ reat desideratum . ( Cheers . ) He concluded by submitting the following suggestions for the approval of the mtet'ng . —

      Proposition 1 st . —That the Factories' Bill now before the House of Commons proposes for all children from eight to thirteen years of age , enactments which have a direct tendency to preverd them from obtaining employment ; and aa the Bill provides thai the education of these parties shall be paid for out ef their wages , they will consequently be left without the meana of acquiring that highly important advantage . 2 nd—That the system of relays proposed by this Bill would , if carried cut , have the effect of bringing up to factory labour double the number of persona who , at the age of thirteen , wuuid be able to find employment in factories . That it would also tend to draw numbers into the manufacturing districts where the population is already too large to find employment , and wonld thus have an injurious effect upon the wages of labour .

      3 rd . —That the proposed period of twelve hours daily labour ( exclusive of time for meals , ) for all persons from thirteen to tw * i » y-one years cf age , especially as moat of them are females , is more than is consistent with their moral and physical welfare , and with the proper performance of domestic duties . iih—Teat any measure for the regulation of the labour ef young persons in factories , should provide for tucb labour being ef uniform duration , and not by relays . That the hours of labour should not be so abridged aa to prevent a reasonable expectation of employment , nor to restricted aa to interfere with the physical and moral welfare of the workers .

      That having due regard to these important considerations , it is desirable that no child should be admitted into the factory under ten years of aje—that the hours cf daily labour for all persons above ten , and under twenty-one should be tta , exclusive of two hours for meals at proper intervals—and that their labour should cea . * e at six o ' clock in the evening . That , by this arrangement , par ents might , to some extent , avail themselves of tveciDg schools far the ¦ workers , and it ¦ would also allow all children under ten pears of ape to have the full berefit of education by any general plan which the Government may provide ; but ¦ ff ' . Ui the Bill cow before the House of Commons , those under thirteen would be thrown out of employment , and those above thirteen would have no time for instruction .

      Mr . ilOBRiS , of Halifax , wished to ask whether it was intended to work ten hours a day during six tiays of the -week , cr whether they should work shorter hours on Saturdays as now . Mr . Rand said his idea waa that they should close upon Saturdays as the bill specified , tb&twasat half-past four . Mr . Morris was asked whether Mr . Rand meant that no system of relays would be useful , or that it was the changes that made the present system bad . Mr . RaM ) taid the varicua enactments coupled with the children were of such s character , that masters wunid not be tronbled with them at all .

      Mr . Wm . Brook , of Haddenfleld , would w 5 sh to ask the object for which the meeting bad been convened . Was it for the purpose of obtaining information , or was it -with a view thatgentlemen of the House of Commons might be atked to support any plan which might be agreed on ? Jf so , in his humble opinion , they were going to dispose of a question of the last importance to this conntry , as a manufacturing nation , in a veTy hasty manner ; and he submitted that it waa a question which ought not to be disposed of in such a manner . The Chairman eaid so far as he could answer , he should say ttie object of the meeting was to consider the question in agitation with respect to the hours of laicur , with the view of ascertaining how far the ssnments and experience of the gentlemen present should concur with any proposition for the amendment of the regulations affecting labour in factories ( Hear . )

      Mr . Rand remarked that the circular pointed out the ohjec : of the meeting ; they had not met to carry anything , but airaply to ascertain what would be the mutt practical measure , and lay the result of ths meeting before the Government He thought the Factories ' BIT . originated in a far more limited and obscure source thin that meeting , for he did aot know a single bouI tii t approved of it . > ir . Fielde . n , M . P ., said , being of those whose n-i .. jb -were attached to the circular , he felt called upon to ii » te his reasons for affixing biB name . Mr . Rand ar . d Mr . Walkvr , -who had been down in town calling npt . n ilemtsrs of Parliament , called upon hiru and proposed that this meeting should be held . The objections of Mr . Brook , he thought , might be answered very

      shortly ; he proposed that a committee uf the House cf Comiao ; s should decide what was proper to be done . He must kDow that committee after committee of the Honse ol Commons had been appninted to no avail . They had ? .. committee in 1 S 40 , when the factory clauses were discard seriatim ; acd a report was laid before the House . The faciory owners of Lancashire and Yorkshire r .-A being aatisfkd with what was recommended in : hat report , but thinking that a better bill might be p ¦• :. ? ed , had come there for the very proper purpose of suiting thtir views tu Hon . Members of that House , who mi ght call tte attention of Parliament to the surject . Several gentlemen were present from Lancasthv and Torkahire ; and he had no doubt that if Hon . , Vei .. bers would listen to them , they would obtain much valuable information .

      -Mr . Wjlso . v PaTTE . v , M . P ., said he attended th < meeting to hear the opinions of persons connected ant acquainted with tfce subject , rather than to pass ro * olu tions . Sir George StB ) CKLa > d , M . P ., Baid the two Hon Members who had last addressed the metting had tx plained bo clear : y what be was going to say , that hi felt it would be hupererogation to say more . He hat received a circular some time ago , and be had attendei to See what was its iinpretiion upan manufacturers that he might know whr . t part to take in the House o Ccmmona on this most Important subject He shoul ( have felt it presnnn- 'doc ' . j have addressed that meeting were it not many years at ) he took up the subject ; h was thta a Ten Hours r _ un ; he resolved to see tha carried out to the fulles . t > vtent , bo that no one unde twenty-tne years should w . h more than ten hours that did not , however , meet * -th concurrence , and then appeared to be a ditpoaitiou in favour of an Eigh Hours Bill . In answer to I i observations of Mr

      Brook , he would Bay , that c ve all things he woul deprecite a committee of the Jioase of Commons ; h had sat on them all from Sadltr * * down to the iastc . n mittee , . where much evidence % » a adduced relative t tha relay system , and that wes an teipresaion vet much in favour of a six hours relay system , whic arose from the fact that in many cases the eight houi relay system had degenerated lcio a six when tb eight would not work ; and many ¦ witnesses diatinctl stated that they preferred a six hours to an eight bom relay syatem .

      Mr . Bright , of Rochdale , aald there appeared to b a difference of opinion upon this question , and from al be had heard it waa not likely to be diminished . Sorai thought there should be no legislation at all upon thi subject , and « thers wtte for having all matters con cccted with them regulated by Act of Parliament His own opinion went with the first ef these . He sale be believed that all legislation upon this subject wai wrong ; he did not particularly object to legislation a < far as it had gone , because he believed public opinioi had bct = a with it , but it waa most certain il they die go on patching and tinkering this question , that ni sort of s&tUfaction either to employer er emplo \ ed eve : could result Mr . Rand -wished thia questio i to h

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      settled , he iwr . Bright ) must say , he thought he was looking far something impossible ; he waa standing on the bank wbile the river flowed by . He thought it was vain and useless labour to endeavour to reconcile elements which were irrconcilable ; he should be very happy to say " aye" to the proposition that the present Bill was very bad , but he should say " no" to the remaining propositions , and he believed if the great body of the working classes were polled , that a great majority of them would say no" to the same proposi tionr .

      Mr . Kay , of Bury , rose to express his thankfolneaa to the gentlemen who bad convened this meeting , and be felt happy that Mr . Rand bad been able to propose a plan for their consideration . He was rather surprised at the iamark that all attempts at legislation were useless and unnecessary . He must say that factory legislation had done a great deal of good —( hear ) . To his own knowledge since be had been connected with cotton factories , mills were in the habit of running not merely twelve , but thirteen , fourteen , and fifteen hours a day , —( bear ) , —and if they had made Acts of Parliament to prevent cruelty to animals , in the name of all that we ~ good , why should they not pass an Act of Parliament for the protection of human labour—and if cruelty had been practised as could be attested by thousands of living witnesses , he could not see why the legislature should not interfere and do what they could to prevent its recurrence—( hear ) . He bad worked in a factory

      himself , and he would say that so long as they worked children twelve hours a day , sixty-nine hours a week , they were detracting from their moral capabilities and perceptions , and be was sure they impaired their physical strength . Mr . Bright said that the matter bad not been much agitated -, he was surprised at that when they had seen thousands of persons passing through the country last year pulling the plugB out of their boilers and stopping their mills ; one of their demands being that the mills should not be worked more than ten hours a day . He was of opinion that till they determined to reduce the hours of labour te ten hours all factory legislation would fail in attaining those objects which it was desirable to attain ; and that be knew was the opinion of the working people in his district . Gentlemen whose mills were in largo towns were not bo intimately acquainted with the habits and opinions of their workpeople as others where the people lived upon the establishment , as they did in his .

      Mr . Bright explained that he did not mean te eay tbat legislation upon the subject bad done no good ; bis opinion was that it had dooe Borne good , for public opinion was with it . Mr . Walker , of Bradford , deprecating and condemning as he strongly did the remarks made by Mr . Bright , -WB 3 happy to find be bad conceded the point by stating that public opinion was against him . The arguments of Mr . Bright might have been used forty year a ago , and they need not have come there in 1843 , to be told tbat young persona were not to be protected , that no necessity existed for protecting those wbo could not protect themselves . He trusted they had made a greater march in the way of improvement than to beg any attention to such views ; be had no doubt tbat

      many of the most influential Members of the House of Commons entertained right views upon this important subject , and that when an opportunity offered they would bring it to a satisfactory conclusion . He rejoiced to say that tho principal concerns in cotton , fax , woollen , worsted , and he might add silk , desired a diminution in the hours of labour . He confidently stated that many of the largest concerns in all those branches would be happy to Bee the hours of labour reduced from twelve to ten . He hoped then tbat Hon . Gentlemen would not be influenced by those wbo say that they had no wish for tinkering in legislation , but that having been called together , they wouUi concur in some measure which would effectually promote the welfare of the bodies and souls of the young persona employed in their factories , &c

      Mr . Milne , of Oldham , bad been for ten yeara a strong advocate of the Ten Honrs Bill , on the ground that to woTk longer was injurious to the health and morals of the children and young persona . He advocated it too un behalf of those wbo were thrown out of work by the present system . Why should they work to death flve-sixtha of ' . he population fur the purpose of throwing the other sixth out of work , and tilling tbe gaols and workhouses with them —( hear ) ? He wanted to know what injury couM arise to any class by allowing them all to work ten hours , instead of five-sixths workjug twelve hours a day , and one-sixth working

      none at U . IL He never heatd a speech with more pain than be listened to Mr . Bright's . He had a great respect fur Mr . Bright , but bis opinions were diametrically opposed to every single sentiment he bad expressed . He ( Mr . Milne ! was prepared to Bay that tbe Ten Hours Bill would be of advantage to the employer . He contended then tbat it was as much for the benefit of the mister as the man to reduce the hours ef labour ; and the only proper principle on which to regulate the hours of labour was to continue to lessen tbe number of hours till the whole of tke labouring population bad employment

      Mr . Morris presumed tbat the meeting contained gentlemen who were too sound political economists to be carried away by the arguments of tns last speaker . There were always two parties to a bargain , and it was very well to raise tbe pricu by reducing the supply , but he doubted very much whether that would be practicable . He beg ? ed distinctly to say , tbat in bis opinion the reduction of the hours of labour to ten hours a day would be prt-judicial to the masters and tbe children . Mr . Hindley , M . P ., thought- they should now adjourn . It was four o ' clock , and the corn law question was coming on , and they had many petitions to present . He thought it highly necessary that this discussion should be continued , and he was desirous . that tbe fallacies of the last speaktr , and of Mr . Milne should not remain unanswered , bo should move tbat the meeting adjourn till the next tiay , at twelve o ' clock .

      Mr . Bright was understood to say that he should protest against , any tuaolutioas beiag brought fovwiud at tbe next meeting . The meeting then adjourned .

      ADJOURNED MEETING . The adjourned meeting of Membtrs of Parliament , and Miilowners from the four counties of York , Laucaster , Chester , and Derby , upon thia subject , was held on Wednesday , May the 9 . b , at the British Hotel , Cockspur-strcet . The Hon . J . S . Wortley resumed the chair . Mr . Ellis , cf Castltfield , Biugley , was in tho possession of the signatures of the owners of twentytour milb , representing their opiniou upon the suoyc % of the hours of labour . He might Eay , generally , that if it were thought adviseablo to alter the act now in force , there was no objection on the part of these millowners to its being altered to the extent proposed by the bill , it being very near the practice existing in their miils now .

      The Chairman eaid it appeared to be the impression of the meeting yesterday , tbat they should nos comb to any distinct vote on theocca > ion : they only wanted to hear the opinion of gentlemen connected with the factories , for the information of members of ParJiament . Mr . Ellis read the instructions ho had received . They were as follows ;— " It is the opinion of the owners of mills in Keighley , Otley , and Hurley , in the West Riding of the County of York , that it it- not advisable to interfere further witb the hours of labour , than is proposed to be done by the Government factory bill now before parliament . "

      Mr . Ra > d said they had met for the purpose of laying belore members of Parliament , their respec tive opinions as regarded tho hours of labour , and tho age of admission into the factories , and the . ir reasons for such opinion ? ; for upon tho soundness of tho reasons depended the worth of the opinion to the Government . There could be no doubt that the object of the Government in proposing this b . l ! , was not to fix hoard fur the exclusive advantage of the masters , but fo to fix them as to be co :. > iSvnt with the moral improvement of tho population . ( Loud cheers . ) If gentlemen lost sight of that fact , uud

      consulted onlythuir own private interests , th ^ y lost sight of the very pith of the reason which induced the Government . io stir at all in thematter . ( Hear . ) He would now big to ask xMr . Ellis ono question , which he trusted he would answer with the samo frankness as he ( Mr . Raud ) had stated his reasons , > csterday , for the plan he proposed ; it was this" Whether a period of twelve hours actual labour for young persons , chieflyly females , with two hours for meals , the time for going and returning from the mills , occupying nearly fifteen hours , were , m his judgment , compatible with their moral improvement , and with the proper discharge of domestic dnties ?"

      Mr , Ellis should say that the plan Mr . Rand proposed yesterday , would not obtain the object ho had in view . He was quite satisfied , ior his own part , that evening schools were altogether insufficient for the purpose of educating the people . He ( Mr . Ellis ) had been for the last thirty or forty years much interested in the subject oi education ; m his neighbourhood they had a national school , containing two hundred and sixty scholars . In his opinion , however , evening and bunday schools would bo by no means adequate for the purpose . Tho persons usually found wilting to instruct in Sunday

      Schools , were generally very incompetent to the duty , and much more fitted to be scholars than teachers . As to the physical part of the question , that was a question fitter for medical men to decide than for himself . He shoula say there were few neighbourhoods where the morals of the people were better than in his own , if he might , judge ot morals from the number of convictions that took place : the number of convictions for assault did not exceed thirty-ttree in a year , in a population of 26 . 000 . He thought that waa a pretty good proof that they were not in a bad state as regarded peace and order .

      Mr . Rand should be sorry te appear pertinacious in a matter of this kind , but he would beg to submit that that was no answer to his question , which he begged to repeat to Mr . Ellis . Mr . Ellis made no reply . The Chairman would wish to ask Mr . Ellis one question , with respect to the working of the enactments which provided for relays ef the young children . Great objection had been made to ti ; ao system in some respects , and he should be glad to k :, ow Mr . Ellis ' s opinion upon it . Mr . Ellis said be had been engaged to that-sort of employment upwards of forty years , and he had

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      never seen anything like a difficnlty in it where patties did not employ an undue proportion of very young persons . Hehidnet , however , any children who worked more than six hours , the eight houra relay having been found productive of much inconvenience . The ohildrea in his establishment , between the age of nine and thirteeen , formed about 10 per cent , of the whole population employed , but in the worsted business he knew the proportion was much greater , in some cases as much as 33 per cent . He thought where there was a ready disposition to aid the legislature , the system might easily be carried out . Mr . Aldam , M . P ., said , one objection which had been raised to the system was , that they brought up a greater number of persons to the factory employment than could be employed aB adults . Mr . Ellis was unable to speak to that point ; he never found any inconvenience to result from it .

      Mr . Aldam begged to ask how long Mr . Ellis had practised the six hour system . Mr . Ellis said about two years . He adopted it after conferring on the subject , with Mr . Saunders , the Factory Inspector , who strongly recommended him to try it . Mr . Brocklehurst , M . P ., thought the plan of Mr . Ellis might suit Keighley Union very well , but Mr . Rand's plan was much more comprehensive . The business of silk throwing would be entirely destroyed by Mr . Ellis ' s plan . He would propose for silk that children from eight to ten years of age should only work six hours and a half , and attend school , and from ten to thirteen , work ten hours a day , and from thirteen , according to the provisions of the Bill .

      Mr . Walkeb remarked that Mr . Ellis had alluded to his own works in the countay : the objection applied more particularly to large town 9 , where the population would be made 0 large in consequence of the double relay system . The Chairman said he had been told that the difficulty would be in the country where there would not bo a sufficient number of children for the relays . Mr . Brocklehurst remarked that the Mayor of Macclesh ' eld had lately taken a census of that town , when it was found that there were 1700 adult weavers walking about , and not one child under eighteen years of age unemployed . Mr . Harrison , of Bury , concurred with Sir G . Strickland in advocating an Eleven Hours' Bill .

      Mr . Kay , of Bury , eaid in many of the mills in large towns the owners would not employ children under thirteen years of age at all . They were , therefore , to ramble up and down the streets , and to do what they pleased . He should very much recommend millowners to take into their consideration that which Mr . Rand had so ably stated , whether twelve hours labour was really consistent with a proper feeling of humanity towards their workpeople . Mr . Brook thought it was agreed that Mr . Rand ' s resolutions should to-day bo taken into consideration

      with a view of considering them in detail . As to the first resolution , he would not say one word except that he entirely agreed with it . The second was an utter fallacy . To suppose that , was to suppose that the persons who were enabled by law to work twelve hours a-day remained stationary , and did not pro gress into any other department of manufacture . As they attained strength , and ability , and information , they were gradually taken from the piecers to bo feeders , where they would feed two carders , or a carder and and a scribbler . That this would

      introduce then a double number of persons into the factories was a fallacy —( hear , hear . ) He then read the third resolution , and asked if there could be any thing more unreasonable than to suppose that tbat would bo the case ; the ordinary wages of piecers was 3 j . 6 d . a-wcek , and in some places as nigh as 4 s . ( id . for the younger branches engaged in that business . But they only got half that amount , that was Is . 9 d . subject to a reduction of 3 J . a week . The income to the family therefore did not exceed Is . 61 . Suppose a man ' s family consisted of five children , he would not have more than two who could work , ' at that description of work , that would be three shillings a week , but that would be a sufficient inducement for any man to change his

      residence . With regard to the 4 th resolutioh , he might perhaps subject himself to the charge of inhumanity in what he was going to say ; but bis opinion was , aud it waa not a very recent opinion , but one founded upon great experience , and it was the opinion of the most celebrated men in the medical profession , that the persons employed in mills in his neighbourhood , where they regularly worked twelve hours , were more healthy—he said more healthy—than tho children who were allowed to roam about , snd wbo were unemployed . They worked in a temperature , certainly not like that of the cotton mills iu Lancashire , which was by no means consistent with health ; and he was told the effect of tho oil was by no means insalubrious ;

      andhebelioved it was admitted by tho Factory Inspectors that the children who came under their inspection wero taller of their years than those engaged in any other employment . With regard to the pressure upon the phy .-ioal powers , he would take it upon himself to say that there was nothing like work in the woollen trade , as compared with the work of an agricultural labourer , a mason , a bricklayer , or any other labourer ; all that was required was attention , but beyond that there was nothing at all that deserved the appellation of labourer . If this were passed young females of the age of eighteen would not be allowed to work the regular hours as by the present law ; ho could see no reason for that ; he believed young women at eighteen were as much at

      maturity as they ever would be— "The proper performance of domestic duties ; " on that he would say , that all faetory labour or labour of any kind other than domestic labour , had a tendency to produce that evil , and unless they took steps to annihilate factory labour , that evil which was inseparable from the system must continue . How could they teach young women engaged ten hours a-day , the culinary art , or washing , or getting up of linen , cooking , or other domestic work ! The next resolution he thought ihat had been already referred to in the first

      propofeition , and certaiuly relays never could work well or would be submitted to by the employer , except when there was a great demand for labourers . As he observed yesterday , to reduce the hours of labour from twelve to tea would hare the effect of destroying one-sixth of all the mill property iu the kingdom—( a laugh ) fie hoped he waa not misunderstood . Unquestionably if thoy could work the mills as much as they wero capable of being worked , and if they were prevented working them two hours a day , if he understood figures , it must have the effect of depriving them of the employment of one-sixth of their property and of its value .

      Mr . Harrison remarked that the value of property depended ot ) the manner of working it and the profits of the trade . , Mr . Brook did not see bow that affected the proportion , Mr . Harrison said it most certainly did affect the proposition . Mr . Brook really did not see much in the remark . The gentleman who spoke last adverted to some remarks with which the meeting waa favoured by Sir Gku . Strickland yesterday , and be ( Mr , Brook ) quite concurred in the view he took of thoso remarks . He

      was awaro that there were exiremo opinions , and he thought that all parties should be ready to make some concessions . The public had agreed that a factory bill should begin when the first factory bill was passed , it was passed under circumstances prejudical to the millowners ; frequent cases of abuse had been committed , and some humane persons , one of whom was in the room—( hear , hear)—headed an agitation upon the subject , and the result was that a factory bill was passed in the total absence of proper information ; and that mill-owner would have been a bold man who dared come forward then to defend himself from the charges of cruelty with which as a body they were stigmatised . Gentlemen of as great humanity as those who headed the agitation felt

      themselves prostrated , aud had not moral courage enough to dofend themselves from the charges heaped againstthem . The view he took of the question as regarded shortening the hours of labour was this . He held that it would bo difficult , if not almost impossible for the manufacturers of this country to keep a footing against foreign competition , and be thought it became the legislature to bo cautious how far they attempted to increase the difficulties which at present oppressed tho manufacturing population of this country . He had before hinted , however , that concession became all ; th (; y were all mrrabersof a great and intelligent community , and no doubt they had the same object in view . He for ot . o , by the way of getting a propor settlement of tho question , though he was in the

      habit of working twelve hours , would not mmd agreeing to a bill of olev > n hours . He did not think that that would deprive him of a twelfth part of his property , but it would deprivo him of some , and no one could deny it . In tho woollen trade in Yorkshire , the people workod by tho piece , and if work should be plentiful , he had mo doubt the men who were rcepoaaiblc for the performance of the work , would take the opportunity of cleaning the machines during tho work hours , as they would have suoh an interest iu turniug out a large quantity of work in the week . Nothing would ^ ive him ( Mr . Brook ) so much pleasure as to see some plan of education brought forward by tho gentlemen which would bo capable of being worked , paying a respect to all the opinions and ncruples of the community at large ;

      but to fetter any individual class of tradespeople , and to vex and annoy them in the conduct of their business , was so utterly unjust aad so bail in principle , that he should kok upon it as the greatest evil that could happen to the factory masters —( hear , hear . ) No man could be more convinced of the necessity of education than himself , but he would say that the people of the manufacturing districts were better and greater , notwithstanding all the obloquy that had been thrown upon them , than those of the " agricultural labourers . He had no other remark to make than simply to say that if any good should result from this meeting , he should feel very thankful to the gentlemen who had called it , and he should be glad to give any assistance to an Eleven Hours Bill .

      Mr . John Wood , of Bradford , having felt himself alluded to by Mr . Brook , freely confessed that he was very early engaged in obtaining the public

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      support to an amelioration of factory labour , and perhaps the meeting would think he was justified in doing so , when they knew that tens of thousands of children , some as young as seven years of ago , began work in the morning at six o ' clock , frequently earlier , and continued their labour uniformly till seven at night , frequently till eight or nine , with but the short interval of halt' an hour for meals . It was his habit never to asperse any branch of factory employment . ( Hear , hear ) He merely entered

      into those abuses with which he was familiar , and which he could no longer permit to continue without attempting some improvement . ( Hear , hear . ) He therefore , from year to year , struggled with his friend , the late Mr . Sadler , whose name he honoured , to obtain a system more consistent with humanity and Christianity ; and it was the happiest recollection of his life that the first Bill that passed , affecting his own branch of business , might be considered as the result of those early labours in which he had engaged . ( Hear , hear . )

      Mr . Hindley said if he had the framing of an Act of Parliament he would bring in a bill for twelve hours from the commencement to the termination of labour leaving half an hour for breakfast , and one hour for dinner , and he would permit young persons to enter the mill at eleven years of age . That was what he would recommend , but he would not conceal that the great body of the masters would not agree to it . Mr . Milne believed that legislation had done a great deal of good ; were it not for legislation , tbo supply of goods in the market now would have created such a glut as to have thrown the people out of employment . If , theu , longer hours than twelve would have caused greater glut in the . market , and

      would have thrown a number of people out of employment , the reverse must follow if they worked less hours ; tho glut would be less and afterwards they should be able to employ moro hands . He did not think that working shorter hours would diminish the value of mill property ; his opiniou was , that by working shorter hours they would in a year or two not require more hands but the masters would get more profit . It was a fixed principle that the smaller quantity of an article was thrown upon the market the greater price it commanded . If the supply of labour to the markot were reduced it would have a tendency to raise the value of labour ; if the people did not work more then ten hours it would diminish the supply of labour , and would therefore

      increase the value of it to the benefit of both masters and men . Ho was of opinion , however , that they should discuss this question in relation to its moral and physical effects upon the employed . ( Hear . ) He believed that long hours had the same bad physical effects upon adults as upon children , though the Government would not legislate for persons over 21 years of age . He did not think , however , that the Government acted upon the right principle in that ; he perfectly agreed that Government should not interfere with tho liberty of the subject , but there was no liberty when once they entered a factory . Several gentlemen had expressed a strong objection to any

      motion being made or vote taken upon this subject ; he did not know why that was . The meeting was called in order to express to members of Parliament the opinions of millowners and he did not see how members could know what their opinion was unless a vote were taken . Many gentlemen had not spoken at all , and it was impossible to know their sentiments without taking a vote . He should not make a motion himself but he would suggest that tho feeling of the meeting should be taken as to a Ten Houra' Bill . ( Hear , hear . ) He was glad to hear Mr . Brook express himself favourable to an Eleven Hours Bill , which was advocating the principle in opposition to the relay system .

      Mr . Rand said when he came to the meeting yesterday he camo under tbe conviction that-they ought to have a Factory Bill of ten hours . He xame there with a mind open to conviction , not with a determination to adhere to any plan of his own , but desirous ot hearing every reason that could be urged against it ; and he could honestly say that he had not beard one satisfactory , sound reason for a departure from hid principles ; | he might bo wrong . Mr . Brook had consented to come down to an Eleven Hour Bill , bnt before he consented to that be distinctly told the meeting that concurrently with the factory system itself , it was in vain to look

      for moral improvement or domestic comfort amongst the females in the factories . If be ( Mr . Rand ) entertained that opinion be would say " perish the factories , " but he did not $ he had no desire to revert to the days of domsstic industry , when the people manufactured by hand in a possibly damp and unwholesome cottage ; he believed the factory system might be made a blessing to England and consistent with the moral welfare of the people . ( Hear . ) If that might be so , he would ask if it were not their duty so to legislate that such should be the result , and he belived the system could be managed in such a manner as to produce that result .

      Mr . Walker observed , with regard to a remark of Mr . Ellis ' s about medical evidence , that he could furnish him with a whole host of" medical evidence " upon the subject . Dr . Hawkins said the hours of labour should be limited to ten hours a day , and stated that that was the opinion of the majority of the medical men of Lancashire ; there was no doubt on that subject whatever . ( Hear , hear . ) He might go further in relation to what had fallen from Mr . Brook , and quote the opinion of a practical man whom he ( Mr . Walker ) should like to have been present , he meant Mr . Greg , who said that a reduction in the hours of labour was most important to the manufacturing population to any alteration in their moral or physical condition ; it might be urged in opposition that all legislative interference was an evil , and so forth , but it was an evil said Mr . Greg , which necessity and policy may justify , and which justice and humanity imperatively demanded .

      Mr . Walker , M . P . for Bury , wished to know the name fof the pamphlet of which Mr . Greg was the author , for he believed he had written upon both sides cf the question . ( A laugh ) Mr . Walker replied that the author was Mr . Wm . Greg , and that the pamphlet was called "An Inquiry into the State of the Manufacturing Population . " He might also quote from Mr . Kenworthy , a gentleman who employed 2 , 000 power looms and who ought to be an authority , and he was firmly convinced that ten hours was the full period that a person should be employed . ( Hear , hear . ) If they agreed to a Ten Hours Bill they wonld do

      what was right towards the working people ; and \ f the consequence should bo less profit to the master ? , he contended that the temporal and external welfare of the young people should not be bartered for the sake of gain . ( Hear , hear . ) But he thought there would be no serious loss to either party in the long run ; an « J he had no fear whatever of the conquences ; he knew many gentlemen who would be glad to see the hours of labour reduced to ten who would indeed be delighted to have it so , for they would the" have a population around them who would regard them not as tyrants , but as friend ? . / Hear . )

      Mr . Brook hoped the meeting would rememher that there was a marked distinction between cotton and wool . His remarks were confined to wool , Mr . Walker's applied to cotton . If there were an objection to working twelve hours in wool , he should say there was as great an objection to working ten hours in cotton . The nature of the one was far superior to the other . The temperature of a cottoa mill was exceedingly high , whilst in ajwool establishment it was not , too high . Mr . Walker said that was not exactly the question ; it was not the nature of tho labour , bat it was the robbing the chiHren of the time which they required for moral improvement . They should be content with ten hours of their labour , and let them spend the remainder of their limo as they chose .

      Mr . Harrison said thore was no difference between the temperature of cotton and wool mills . In the mills of Mr . Kenwonhy , however , he believed there was considerable difference , which consisted in the difference between fine and low spinning . Mr . Kay said the gentleman referred to was not Mr . Ken worthy of Manchester ; he believed Mr . K . ' s temperature was not high . Mr . Walker , M P ., said his brothers were very largely connected with the cotton trade , and he had therefore thought it his duty to consult gentlemen interested in that trade , and ascertain their opinions , and he found that there was a general

      dissatisfaction with the law as it at present stood . He thought there was a great disposition to come to a compromise with the labourers as to the hours of working Different opinions did exist , but tho great majority of reasonable and well-disposed manufacturers were in favour of a short time of working . ( . Hear , hear . ) The general feeling appeared to be tJiat there should be a uniform time of working for children and adults , and , so far as be could judge , the majority were in favour of making ten hours with the children rather than have the relay system . ( Hear , hear . ) He believed the relay system was not adopted at all in Bury , containing 70 , 000 inhabitants .

      Mr . Kay remarked thatjthere were one or two wbo worked upon it . Mr . Walker , M . P . continued—He was not aware of it . But : he knew there was a great disposition against it , for the system was so- troublesome , and Inspectors had &o much power , tbat masters would rather employ persons above thirteen years of age , than they wonld be troubled to steer clear of all the meshes and nets spread for them by the present law —( hear , hear ) . He saw the difficulty of relays , and of having much labour unemployed from six to thirteen years of ago , and Bhould they come to a vote in the House of Commons , he should vote for a Ten

      Honrs Bill ; but , seeing so many influential manufacturers present , be should lik * to have their unanimous opinion , because that would have a great effect upon the Government . So long as the present system continued , the females could not be . educated : they became mothers in a state of ignorance ; and ho thought one argument in favour of a diminution of the hours of labour was the respect they ought to have for the female character—( hear , hear ) . He thought that tho manufacturers and spinners present should come to a unanimous vote , whether in favour of an Eleven or a Ten Hours' Bill , and he thought that by some compromise they ought to do so . Could

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      they not do it by having a Ten and a-half H Bill ? Suppose to begin work . at- six . La oni | f till eight , then half an hour for breakfSt ^ work till twelve , then begin again at one i ^ work untill six o ' clock at night , that Z ^ r be ten and a half hours . They would allow Do , ° for tea , and he knew from experience that a ™ could de as much in a short day as he could in « i *" day-Cheat , hew . ) He knew that whTil ° ter fair was in prospect or a fete was cornel they had 20 per cent , added to the amount of trL ^ tion in a given time , and he was confident if tK ! T pie knew they were only { to work ten hours "Ji * half , thatthey would work with greater * & ! $ * in t

      ey am now—near , near . ) rle thought thev Wnnu do a great service to humanity , and would Z v injuring the trade . if they came to a resoluti on to Vi . i effect —( hear , hear . ) At the same time he did » I wish to in trade his opinions —( hear . ) ° * The Chaibman said the last speaker had remarks tbat in the town of Bury there was no one manner turer wno had worked by relays , perhaps heiX be good enough to explain how they escape the Z tern of relays , because children under thirteen v « of age , were limited to eight hours labour . y ^ Mr . Walker , M P ., said that they had not aetou under thirteen yearu of age in their factories- / W , hear . ) With respect to Mr . Greg ' s pamphlet if would remark that Mr . Greg wrote it when ha WT a youag man , and he ( Mr . Walker ) highly api *^ of it ; but about five years ago Mr . 6 E ? pamphlet on the other side , and he belived ha « , now a twelve hour man—( A laugh . ) ^

      Mr . Cheetham waa afraid that the feeliat & pressed by the gentleman who had just sat dnwi with regard to aa unanimous vote , could not b « res ? hzed , for it appeared that in that room as else wW they were divided . Tke question presented itself u him in two points of view , the 1 st a question rf humanity , the 2 ad a question of policy . Oa th . footing of humauity , ten hours was correct ^ 3 eight hours would be still better , but it did not w cord with policy ; and when he ( Mr . Chaethim saw the trade of this country bound and fettered ! appeared to him that Government should first sei ( Continuedin our Fifth page . )

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      Leeds Corn Market , Tuesd ay May Ifith .. T arrival of Wheat to this day ' s market is rwue larger than last week , other kinds of P * l * jr { J Fine Wheat has been in limited demand tt i » week ' s prices , but the second qualities have wen better demand , and prices fully supportedi , chambered qualities very dull . Barley little > auw tion . Oats and Beans iu better demand , ana pro rather dearer . THE AVERAGE PR 1 CF . S OF WHEAT , FOR THE W

      esdinq May 16 th , 18 i . i . Wheat . Barley . Oats . Rye . Beans . P « Qrs . Qxs . Qrs . Qrs . Qw- \ 3723 2-28 718 0 1 ^ „ d £ s . d . £ s . d . £ s . d . £ p . d . £ s . d . * - } 2 7 71 1 11 11 0 19 2 i 0 0 0 18 2 1 ^ Richmond Corn Market . May 13 - ~ i ^ ytr ] fair supply of Wheat at our market to-day , du thinly supplied with O » ts .-Wheat , froin as o 6 s 6 d ; Oats , 2 s 3 d to 3 *; Barley , 3 * 3 d -to *«« Beans , 33 9 d to 4 s per bushel . , HUDDEHSFIELD CLOTH MARKET , MA T lo . - * ' ^ na loot Tvaalr anrf fivr mftnv Weeks BieVlOUS , _ ' ., i

      ness transacted was not great . Fancy wooue sell best . The warehouses are uot % ^^^ i 3 there any prospect of their being so . I&e «>« jDg extremely full of visitors in consequence oi » b the May fair , but their sport was mach damage the rain which continued all the evening .

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      O'CONNOR , Esq . of Hammersmith ^ , w » Middlesex , by JOSHUA HOBSON , at W * «» J Ing Offlcea , No » . 12 andl 3 , Mark « t-8 treet , BnflPJ and Publiahed by the said Josmu ¦ Hobw ( for the said Vexnava O'Conwob . ) atnu » ^ Iing-bouae , No . 5 , Market-rtreet , BritVJ * internal Communication existing between . ° ^ No . 5 , Maiket-atreet , and the said Not . V 13 , Market-streefc , Brlggato , thn * <******** - whole of tbe said Printing and Publishing ^ one Premises . All Communications must be addressed , f" *** * Mr . HOBSON , Northern Star O « ce , W-( Saturday , May 20 % W * W

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      o THE NORTHERN STAR . v » _^ | — - — —_ , . . — ' -. . _____^^^ .

      In Off Publishing In Penny Numbers And Foarpeany Parts,

      in Off publishing in Penny Numbers and Foarpeany Parts ,

      Local Markets.

      LOCAL MARKETS .

      Leeds :—Itintea Ior Uie Riuy^V». U, Leeds-.-Printed For The Proprietor Feabg

      LEEDS : —iTintea ior uie riuy ^ v » . u , Leeds-.-Printed for the Proprietor FEABG

  • Citation
    • Northern Star (1837-1852), May 20, 1843, page 8, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse-os.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct803/page/8/