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Northern Star (1837-1852), 2nd July 1842, Edition 2 of 5, Page 6

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    • 5mji?n'al dgarliamcnt.
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      Untitled Article

      iiuUSE OF LORDS-afcrufaj , June 27 . InI DiOlLOf moved the second reading of tfct-AfiM ^ r . o :: Bill . His object in this measure -was to giTt r-.-Utf" to those Christians ¦ who literally intfri > rev the command , " Swear not at all , " and vrbo c . r . scttctiou * 3 v act on the' -r convictions ; and to erab ' . e fcuni to fur *> -er the ends of justice by giving their ^ videtct ¦ withr-ut violating tbeir conscientious fefl ^ nts . The Earl of WlCKLOW opposed the bill . bt- ' rg niorf-< 5 lsv « r-. d to support & njeasore for the abrogation of oaths alu > £ ctfcer .

      T' -e Bishop of lOKDOX felt himself in a difficulty . He r _ ci .-c-ctod the conscientious jcrapies of tb ? p « ij ? z . s for "srhosa relief the till was brou . bt forward , ssu ¦ vras i- ^ are ttat , arnorgst other insiarees cf hErrsLiy , these wis the case of a distin , guisb . { -d num b er uf tJ . e bai ^ - ^ hfi had foregone the emolnmenis of office ratttr than Ticlate his convictions by iaiiD ? tbe o , Mhe Teq-clted . BelieviEj that the entire surject nin ^ t be deal * . vr tb . legislatively at no distant period , be "WouI-1 . aliitain from either supporting or opposing the present bUL In the coarse cf the further debate , Lord Abinger protected afairut the case of the Q lafcers b-hii , tsa-z as a j ?> -o « ltiit ; he found them , as W ; tnfs * e- ? , txevti :-ingly :. iffi ? clt to manage , as they never gave a oirtc : answer to &et questica .

      1 , rds Br » n ; : bam and Denman defended tht Q lsiers troni ine imputations of Lord Abingtr . O-. a sug ^ eition from the Bishop of London , vlich vrzs 5 jfpo : ted by the Lord Chanc * licr , the b ; U ¦« - . ¦ ., ¦ wiUi-. ira-ira , on the understanding that the est ' rv : tr > ject Is to he referred to a seh-ci committee , "with a view to some farurs legislative proceedings .

      Untitled Article

      HOUSE OP COMMONS , Friday , June 24 . Pr-tirfons were presented arainst the presei-t * j * t-m Of i 3-ional e d ucation in Ireland , stains ' - the Pi > ¦ : L .: w Continuance B . ll , and for a better system for the it £ ulation f f niecicil eharities in Ireland . On tb . e motion foE joiug into committee on the Poor La" ^ Ar : f ncnicBt BilVbeiLg read , 3 * r L . VWSOX moTfed , th ^ t it be & 3 ia s-tni-. 'Jcn to the coitn-itt-e that tiey bave poutr to divide the b : Ii intc ' .-wo pstts . Tee motion havine betn s ? ccrded ,

      £ ; r J . GRAHAM Enid , it s-ouli ] not fca zec : FS 2 rv ' or bin : t- ¦ ;• t-. in the Honse nt any length in op ? H . ? ioc t ' motivu . He introduced tiis aeaiuxe on the 4 : h of May . and -ffijEj of the clauses \ rtre c-. 'EiiOered in the la ^ : session . The Hen . G-cBTiemansaidhe tad no o'jectica to IL-. tr » t five classes , which , in bis opinion , 'rff ^ he m ? s " . -n-pt-rtsat in the bill . He eonsiderid tl > iik-ion of ifcr H ¦ n . MbiK >> c-rnsclessandsuperfiuons , ai . ' . iteiifort , Lr t ; - "ped the Htnse ¦ svoaZd proceed to consider the Bill in committee . G . * . ; - " "" - « s Pechzlx inpporied the motion for dividing the Phi- L . w Bill into fwo parts .

      Dr ¦ Botvrisg said it conld not "be denied 1-ur tl . at gres .: ¦ ¦ ¦' . uses existed under the oi-1 Psor Law E" ,: ! . tn-. j theit ' - rt he Tcted fur the bill , "which h&d for its o ? j-ct the an . ¦ - . dment of th 3 t la \ r . Wtether the nen ; j ^ ia . urt had ¦ worked "well , it "was for the House to consider—( hear Cfrtiinly co ^ ts cf tffl ctioa and snfftiirc had fcaktn pkee lately , "trhich "Wire a distracs to a cmiu . d Conr ' rj—ibeari—and the inquiry "which had tskris pl ^ e ¦ sr as :. r s =. tb < factory to any party . He wished ; his unporrint Sill to be tboronghlj accessed in eyrrj sta ^ e , and b ^ — onld . not avail himst-f of ttie technical forms of the Hiii * e to oppose the Bill . He would itt ofilr any f ^ i-risss oppcsiiion . 2 Jr O Co . vjeh should Tote vith the gorerrnit-rtt on the I'T-. stnt occasion- Ha was deeidedly cf op : n-on that tLis irnpert ^ nt measure ought to be in one Bui ; it cc : Lt not to be divided .

      lit . Fielded said , he bellcTtd this bill tu ^ ht net to p- _« 5 . , therefore , he ahouid oppose it in iTtry ¦ Wa y *_ L .-f-. 'Kns of the Ecuse al ' uvrrd . Hr should vote for tL- ^ nirndment vrhic-i fcjid btcn proposed . fc ^ r H . W . Barhos cosflidartd the >* ir Poor la-s- B'l the most beneficial Hseasure erer p . ^ sed hy the L-- f ilature , and "whsa its proTisiocs TTtre tLurc ucfciy Tinatr 5 ' .- <> a and fnllj" carri-d out , the w . > untry \ roui . j thhiA ai he did . It "Kuuld prove a bentSt to both poor and rich— ihear . j It "sras the cry cf tttrr . sl war on tif turtinp at the last ti-jcticn against ihv P ^ r Lstts and the Com Lvsrs that placed the pre « Lt ministtrs of the < x- > Temnient in the Situitiur , 3 ttey fiow LeKi—( hear . ) He felt Kound to support the bill , but he c =.-u * d not support their ten-ral policy . ifr . GiUJiSDlTCH "R-aa of opinion no benefit c-uM be dtrr . * c by dividing the bill into two parts , thtrdoie hs n . u ? t oppose the motion .

      AS- ^ t a fe-w -wordB from General JOHNSON ( cries of " D-THe , di-sida . ") 3 lr . Lawson said hs -would not trouble the House to d : T -. it ! , he Trould ¦ withtiraw his mction . 3 dct ;! -n "sithdra'wn . Oe the motion b * : ng again pet that the Speaker do leave tL « cbaix , iiT . T . S . Du > 'COXiBE rcse atd moved the following Tesolatlon : — " That , consideiiDg the distrf Es ? fi state of the commerci : ; and inSustrions clisfes of this conntry , together Tiriili the advanced p-: riod of the session , and the

      prespp . t st *; ta of public busintss , cotple-l vrith the fact that tre Poor LaT Ccmrcisrlon expires on the 31 st of the rnvcing month , it 5 s the opiiiicn of th's House t £ at th = re is not new refflsient ti ^ tr to enable Pirlia-Hient t- ;> zzve that attention ard deiibtration to tie import ; Et chznges intbelavrs for the a .-immistrat'on of relief t- > ire r-oor , " which the roeascre ir : trodnced by her Jfsj * zj'e 'iinisters irDperativtly cemsn&s ; r . nl that it ¦ wouit 1 thtr-fcre be more expedient , that rue ^ surts -f a terLp-esry character should be adopted , to m ' rtt any ir-. -onv ^ tiisncs -which t > e expiring pTovi 5 i « jns of existi .-. ^ l ^ -srs for the relief of the poor may be deemed to TtQrire . "

      The Hen . 21 ernber contended that thia naportmt Bill eoull :: _> : be prcptrly and satisfactorily o ; i-sider ^ d fiuriTii lie prestnt session of Paruament- The txiiting Bill -zzv '^ r&l on the Slst of July , and therefore a temporar ? lubaiure ought to be intro-uced , and the qr . i £ - tion = jrsptctirig the ssibb fully ar-d calrcly di-ccssed ia the EcX- session of Pulianifciit . He did not think thut any o : jecticn would be raissd to continuing the prestnt Bill I-.. * another year , but in the pres * n ^ state of pn >> lic b asinets they ought not to be cahed upon to pasa a permarjKii Act . The Bill onght to l ^ ve ' Dvan ictrt > dueed tt an exriit t period of the session .

      > tx . Wai-xace seconded the motioii . He eloquently exp ^ tiax ^ upon tte apatey extibited by both sides -of tb . e Hvcse respectiEg the aSiirs of the poor ; but he tfoe ; 3 do his duty to them , for the poor onrht rot to r-e ^ ' otred to starve . The Poor Law did nut pro ^ Tidt fc-r the destitute . He would , with the assistance of f •" -= .: r or five individuals , bring the tfiair shortly btfere the Hc-ise . S ' James Gbaham admitted the iinportance of the OUMti-n now before the house , and he was deeply imof

      pre ^ fed with the distressed condition -woifeine rl ^ sses . Bat it "was nccsr a question how those difficulties Ehouid be met . There wcrenow 1 200 , 060 psr ^ ns in England and Wales receiving parochial relief . Kow howTras this gigantic evil to be relieved "? He fcad considered the question in all its bearing ; and he Lad recommended rhe adoption of various expetii- nis from time to time . He vras qnste prrpsred to er . t * r into details of the aeasure , "with a view to spp ' y » rrrcedy to the existing evils , if possible . He woQi'i v . t- for the government measure .

      Jir . HtME said , that he had always approved of this ni'Asura ; yet he regretted it had not amwi-red the parp-: i 5 tf iiiT which it had been brought fi . rsrird . Hthoujcht it "would be expedient to pass a bil ] of a Umporifj sacure for one or two years ; f ^ r Parliament bad passed a bill to prevent the poor rsaa from wcrking ( Ht-ir . bear , j The poor tract to w ^ rt , bnt her if Tjistys mii :- > ur * -will not let them have it ! Hal they not pasivi the corn laws , which deprive them of "woifc ? They : ' o rot want charity . L = t the House remove res * rii . tioi : 8 on trade . Gentlemen may say " No . no , "

      bnt the time "was at hand wkt-n tfcty ffomi be cornpel : ^ i \ o c-mply . Ij-. X the Eight Hod . Barontt con ? idtr that in a few months those countries which depended upon vnr eonrraeroe "would be iauf-pencient of us . Hb rep ^ :- i . that free trade in eora v . nd provisicnB . acd nt > iL ? : < else , trouia give employment -o the puor man . Thry r nld not have the poor law and tte corn law top- tberj for soeieiy "wcu-d tten be divioed into classes —the TCry rich , and the very poor . The pwr "were decreed and tramp ' -.-d np- ? n ; and the time ^ as apprcs'Jj-rsjf when the rich t ^ tja ^ t-lves would rnSVr . h

      iir . LiDDEi ^ l wished that -r ^ aj ^ ty ' a ministers Tfcu' -: iunit tbe preesnt bui to the Sarst nve clauses . By this m-asure the Gii ' -eit Unions an-i the district pacpt-r schools would not be t- u : h-. d . H ^ maintained th ^ t the measure w . ui d n < t afiora the tmallest addsn-jual relief ; asd the rtmovai , ! res' ^ ictiuns on trsdc would only ajTST ^ Viittr th-e evd . L-itd J 0 H 5 Kcssell said , the number of poor ¦ WO 1 ..--J be vt-ry considersMe , "irtrat ^ Tcr might be tb ; - - fatr of the com ls . 'xs ; and it would Etiil be nq . isitto bare a good sistemof poor laws ; and no chanst of lia com laws could mcie it txpecLifent to put up vrth a bad or irjadick-us syst-. m of poor law adm : a : strat ; en . TTpon those grounds he opposed the motion . Colonel Wood was of opinion that the house should Inttiftre , and not allow the out-door relief to be administerci by capriciom oeznmiESioners .

      ilr . Fe ^ kasd was convinced Poor law Commissioner sad Assistant-Commissioners -would npbo ' . d any system "which gave them the control of the public money —( " Oh , oh I" ) He felt it due to himsell ks a msmber of the Keighley JBoard of Gnardians , as CUaznnan of the Board , and as a Magistrate of the eout . ty ia "which the onion waa established , to prove to the hoase and to the country , that s statement which faaa been made respecting him by a public officer , in a repors now he believed on tlie table of the house ,

      was a false and scandalous one —{ " Oh , dhi ") He did sot epvuk 03 rumour , like the Hob . Member for Bath , but ba 4 much stronger gr&unda for the confidence with Viiicfi . be made his assertion * . He would prove from the report of Six J . Walsham , that the statement made by Mt . Mott-wag falae * The Bight Hon . Baronet , the Sftearetary for the Home Depaitment made it bis boast the other night that . 6-overnaient had sot betrayed the eonfi-Jenee which the house reposed in them , whan it granted the additional day for public business ; but be -wvu _ d tell the Hon Saroaet thai Ike country bad been

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      betrayed when it placed confidence in the Government , when—( chews , and crifcs of " Oh , oh ! " during the Temainder of the sestence ) . He cured not for friend or foe , but "wouM speak his opinions boldly . The Government had been raieeil to power by the dttprooted hatrtd wfaico the people feore to the New Poor Law . It was the detestation of that law which placed the Conservative candidates at the head of the poll . It was to " raise thtir "voices against thxt law that they were returned to that house , and he stood there to perform the tiaty for which he had be 6 n sent . The Noble Lord opposite last year introduced his Bill , and took his sra . n-1 npon . it . "What-was the cor . tn qn ^ nca ? The country , when the general election came , told the Noble L > ra that they would not have his bill nor him either .

      Tiiis only carried out the argument of the Hon . Baroi ?^ , tfce . Member for Waterford , w ?> o said that the GoveTnment had obtained their majority in that Houst-. by the agitation of this question . What was the difference between the Hon . GentUman and himself ? Tee Ken . Gcntltnan , be believed , agitated for the Repeal of the Union—he ( Mr . Ferrandi agitated for the repeal of the Poor Law . The Right Hor . Member for the county of Cork also agitated for the Repeal cf the Union , bnt he ( Mr . Ferrand ) believed they would carry tbe rtpfal of the Poor Law before the Right Hon . Gentleman carried the R'peal of the Union . He { Mr . Ferraii ( i ) would row call the attention of the House to f-., mu s-tatfrinents in Mr . Mott ' s repcit H » found that

      . Mr . Mutt said , " I regret to h .. ve to report to your hoard ' . bat the proceedings of the guardians p . tc "very us > a . ti-factory ; in short , tney are e : tircly at variance with tne provisions of the law and the dirtcti'ns vt y .. « ur h ani . " He ( Mr . Ferrand ) btgeed lejivt ; to assure tl - > . House that the Board of Guardians of tht ; K < - ; ghloy U . iionliad been earrjinp on the whole i-f theii : proc- ^ mnrs . sines he himst f atttnied the board , according to tLe txyrtsa directions of tbe C-iniaiisiarjers of SuiHerset-honse . This was directly contrary tj ths &IWcatiuns of the Commissioners ¦ . beraselves . He h » -ld in h : s hand tbe report of the Poor L- ! vr OmmiFsion ' -TS fof 1 » S 0 The following passagt-s aescriw d the » t-ite t-f the unions in Lancashire and tbe nortb < -rii districts , and t ) : s manner in which tbe law was carried cut : —

      " , "VW are enabled to state generally , in rt-Jererco to tbtse uni ^ n * , that Jhe boards of cuardisiis are proct-e '' . ing estisfactoriiy in the adrainijtr . Mi' n of xziiii * * * * » * T *? e Mm ? obsfnrations apply to many of thf unions in tt e "West Riding of Yo k , which b ; : ve been locgrstin epcratiun * * * Tbe guardians are autboii-t-d to put the law into operation vnder and suJj-ct to the provit-ioEs of the 43 ' . E zibeth , c 2 . itho cl- . L . ^) , and are , ii . f- , a larger v-jttry , before wiio : n the cas . s jf ih > - re » p-. crive panpdrs are invest ^ i ^ ted on tl . eir o ^ n pjr-M . nai apjilicatioii or from the r- port uf the rui ' . Viv s fBotrs , whose duty it is to aliniiiUVer tbe itriitf ordir =. U b . the beard , and t * i : quire into tl-i- situati-nof tl . e ij ^ untri making application , and the br-ard of guirto

      ^ nai . ji have reason LelieTe ttat jvul wa-uts ana nc-c . r-MUes of the poor are more pron : ptiy ; tttrniie' . \ to anii re . sc- ? ed than under the old law . " Ht br ^ t-il the pa-t-cular attention of tbe Hougf to thi se xtracte , ib'ch mviuIc ! shouw the Eystcinry which Vfce P or Liw Cv , H-. i ; iisM' . > Dsr 8 gulled the public seiJilins ; h . ti .-lDUtcr mmiriit-rerB up and down the country to iKctiTc tbe Ev . U 5 ? an * l the Government . He would t ? ke \\ . r li ' v ^ ty of readina an extract from tho i * pori of S : r J . W . ilshim . rtiative to the Kui ^ bley Union , which "would cununa what he bad stated relative to tbe inaccuracy if Mr . M >» U ' b "report : —*• The txornuiture on i s pnui , r . r . r t pripcipally , I tsKe it , on its non-stULd p ;> or . has roort than doubled itself since tbe Oeciar ^ ioD of tha Union in Fei ^ ruary , 1 S 37 ; a * la . nce at tte subjoiE-d table "will at once show this to be the caee : —

      AVcisPb quur i tc : ly Expen- Expenditure 1 Names of ditur ? for tht lor tbo j Increase Tow ^ Lips . Three Years Qu . ; rter tnc- p ^ r ecdirg March : r >^ March Cent . 25 . 1837 . 25 , 1 S 42 . 1 . Bmgiey 2 $ 6 666 133 2 * H-iworth 238 4 V 9 110 3 Kekhhy 363 767 j 111 4 . Mrrtoa 74 1 " 2 I 33 5 . Sttr ' . on 43 75 ! 74 6 . Sutton & 7 | 160 i 54 Tr . tal 1 091 i 2 2 ( J 9 > l < iS

      An increase of 108 per cent , indieat-s . prin . a facia , a loi . se and imperfect administration , ami it divert me . therrfure , r . o surprise to hear that out-di >< i relief and nor-resident re ^ ef in aid of "wages , civtn al m ost wholly in money and "without requiring work in ri- 'urn . was the . "ysttm on which the board of £ . uircli&na tf the K-ithly Union had been procetdii-g . Bat it is somf satisfaction to add , that not only did the ensrdiar-s seem fc )) y aware and willing to arn ^ t tL : it > tirh system ¦ was uuj-iund , and octet to be cbeckt-ri , but thry yr : re ntifavouring to make hrrirRemfnts with t ' ' 8 surveyors of tie highways in the several townj-hips f r iTcviaiDir wotk for the able-bodied . I am tor , bowt-vtr , pn-V arwi to say that these arrargenn-j-ts wjli he aiirquutr to tb . Hr purpose , or to tbf t » qnis-. * ' r . s of the < -ut- < ii ' .: r

      iabour test recently issned to tb < - Kri :: hiy Uuioii ; 8 'ul tbt-y involve a moveir . ent in tbe ruht tiirectii'n . > nd as the suiirdians disposed (* o as li-art-it stiuiJc dt- ) of tkr bnsint s > b-fore them in a business l k » j ni . ~ r ; tr , I &ni nLt inclined to augur unitv urahly tf tt . tir future pr . iceMiiTits as regards a Hiore sjstrinr . uc and cotrvCt di > - tri uiion of out-relief . " One f . n-at c :. usc of the ircrcase of tne rates , apparent on tbe fare ef tbe extract he bad rt-ad , was tbe bringing sci-h num ^ cJ ^' f uim fron : tie southern and other acriculiural iii& ricts into tlit- manuiattuin ; g parisbts cf Laccasl . lre . It wr . s a fact tt . it some r-t these m > n were now nceivirg fri . 'tu the parisbes whence they bad b « en tmn > porttu tbirieen pounds a year in aid of vas ^ s . If any improvement had t > een rtane m tb > - wu king of the

      law , he ( Mr . Ferrand ) would tnj that it vratowing ej : tirely to tbe exertions of its uncomprrmisinc and dttt-. rmined opponents , and of t " e bb ? . ri ? s r . f ^ nardians , " « he had b ^ en o ^ l igtd to set tte ci-inmifsioneri . at fitliaiicj ? , end 2 ct contrary to their direction ? . That T ? 2 B owinu solely to the arbitrary , nnconstituiiora ! , mor ^ troua . inhuman , un-Chri « tian . un-Entl : » H oriieis wflieh the latter occasionally issued . Were tuch lw-. n , he would ask , to be intrnstei with the aiiinin . stratipn cf the werihouse test ? He now cinie to the clese of ? Jr : iIotf « report ; and what wouJd the Right Hon Barontt say when he heard what was there stared ?—•• Without proper workhouse nccommodatioi' I ani afraid that other restraints 'upcu tie guardians w < u < l be but of little avail . As tbe aunitors » re now elected

      the : r services in many union ? are but of little usf , and no ben > ficiai check can be ixpect ^ i through them . I have repeatedjy ventured to mate to your board , and all rt-cent experience has eorjfhnieii the opinion I have " before expressed , that even as a pr * cautionary measure , in the manu facturing districts , where the poor nues , unnl rtciriitJy , have been comparatively light , tbe p * --visr . ns of the New Poor Law are luuniy caUed for ; and that unless the Poor L-. w Commissiocers urr empowered by the Legislature to enf .-ice ti ' . e pn > - vition for proper workhorise acc < mnu : riation to ai « i tbe re :-traint upon relief to able-bodu-tt paupers . there ia nothing to prevent the pressure of the poorrat-s in tha manufacturing districts from l < tconiin « ten tirnt-8 more roinous in their consequence and more

      cancerous to the public welfare than tbos * - when were unhappily witnessed in the agricultural d- ' stiict ? « . f the s nth of England . " Now be wouja ask tbe Kibht Hon Gentlfnia-ti what kind of po 6 rL < -u *^ B tbry ^ ert guinj ; to erfce . ? Tbe feeling in that uii-trict was ni «» si determined in opposition tL 5 s mea-nTf " . The p ^ wple in the north of England were uraEiuioua r-lm ^ t to a man against : t —( hear , hear ) Tins inilted was no party queition , for if it ¦ wtTe rtid they think he wouid Ftan'i uu in that House and fxpr » £ s his opini » us to ibe irjury of the GoveromeEt ?—( l » -ar . heu . ) But tbe question they had to decide waa whether tbe nortbern wrs of England Bhould be cijinpleteiy ruined , the w ^ ikini ; classes tbtre be made lietennined haters ui tbe ir ^ u utions of their country , and tbe men of prnptrty be

      made to fet-1 that every principle of tbe eoirstitmiou had been violated . Tbe Biebt Hon . Gentleman knew it was impossible to carry cut tbe orders that were is ^ ueii ; the commisaiorjers knew it too , end yet , in spite if the state in "which tbe union of Keich ' tv was , tbt-y issued the directory orders to which h r places and their x-a > thsn to care for the pnMic welfnTe . H :. d tbe people i f ihis country become jo otyraOtd from every principle that actuated their ancestors , that three Poor Law coimsissioners at Son .-erstt-hi u « e we : e rt-rilertd nt-ctEESiry for providme for-the poor ? - He ufcaleiiged the Right Hon . Gt-nticnian to pmvp a > iiii : le inJ- ^ nce , under the oia law , of a ra ' t-vuytr in the

      Krignity Union , cf anv party , wl o was tvtn actuau-rt by one nn £ : nd feeijn *; to ^ aTus tbe peer , -c-t who cvet ! i'i ; ot bis duty to them . He was now Chairman of the GteamianB of that Union ar . ii a i-bort time sncf ¦ fffcen Le fonnd these pt-remptory orders I a 1 btf-n sent oo-sn . as Chairman of t'ie Hoard , and as a mairi-trate , he tmciaily co : umunicau-d to the Ri » : ht Hon . Gc-nt . ' eman , that if those crdt-rs were carried oct , he ftlt convinced a breach of the p-ace would take place . What ¦ was the answer of the Rght Hon . Baronet , the Secretary of Sute for the Horn * Dspartmrnt—the jr ^ iardian of the poor of the coantry ? That he could not interfere !—( hear > But ho would ask tfc < - Right Hon . Bart , ¦ chftbfrr be had not acted as tbe Ci . airman of a Board of Ga&rdians and as a magistrate of Cumberland ? Did he allow any Poor Law Commissioners to interfere with him ? Did he allow them to step in with their authority ? No . Then let the same motives which

      actuated the Right Hon . BaroBet as Chairman cf a Board of Guardians in Cumberland be attributed to him in his position u Chairman at tbe Keigbley Union—( bear . ) He held in his hand an extract from a speech of the Right Hon . Gentleman on tbe 20 tb of July . 1839 , and he could assure tbe Right Hob . Gentleman that " Hansard" had been a great comfort to him since he had had the interrtew with him—{ a laugb . ) The Right Hon . Gentleman said the other sight that he possessed considerable ibfloeace in Cumberland . [ Sir J . Graham intimated thai he had not said so . ] The Right Hon . Bart said that he had considerable property there , and property generally gave influence ; bat At any rate he "wished that he had more . ( " Hear , " and & laugb . ) The speech which he was about to quote was made when Lord J . Russell moved the order of the day for going into committee on the Poor Law Bill ; and the Bight Hon . Gentleman then said , — «• When the Com-

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      missioners of Seaierset-house came practically to consider tbe prudence of carrying out tais regulation ( the refusal of out-door relief ) , t ' Re inquiries they made , and the experience they had acquired , taught them the impossibiliiy of giving general effect to the law . Uniformity was desirable . This rile , prohibiting the administration of out- > loor relief , so far frern being general throughout England , was , he must say , somewhat capriciously spplied . It was applied to certain unions in the south , but in the north the rule was not in operatioD . In Cumberland , in tbe union of which he was chairman , they were bourn ! by bo such regulation . An ample discretion was Kit them ; they were not fettered in the least ; and if they bad not been left to the exercise of this unfettered discretion , he was bound to say ,

      bo should not have held hi hi self responsible during the last winter for the conduct of that union . " He said it was rBonstr . us , it was most unjust , that three Poor Law CL-mmissicaers , bo grossly iguotant aa he had preved these men to be , should make those orders , which , if carried out , must reduce this country to a state of anarchy and coDfusioa—increase the enormous rates which he bad brought before the Honse—which must turn the need and infirm cut of their homes , and carry out the lukour t « st am ought a population of 50 000 peisons , who bad now scarcely the means of gettin g a single day's employment But let him ask the Right Honour . v-le Baronet this—Were those orders issued by the Poor Law Conimissioners for the purpose of tearing from their homes persons of seventy ,

      eighty , and ninety years of ap . e , who were , to a certain txtent , relieved by the filings of charity which imbued the brea ** of their poor neighbours— tbat when a slight a » sist ; ince from the board of guardians or ratepayeis wculd enable tli-.-m to be c . nrried from the hearth on -which they sat to their filial resting place in tho church-yard , they were to be dragged to a onion woikhonse , in defiance cf every fed ing which the Jaws of this country had raised within them , until the people were tiu « ht to regard a workhouse as a prison ?—( hear . ) Was it net monstrous that tbe commissioners should bav % ! issued those orders tit that very moment in the Knff ; h ! tjy Union , tbas , when carried out , and they must bu if it were possible , would tear the aged and infirm from tlitir peaceful homes , no longer to

      en joy their " evening Tra ;! t hy the mountain s side or in 'he alluded lanea , but to l >» immured within prison V ? . illa , to have bftrj fetrliug ditwgarued , ana to be imp isoned iu a union workhouse ? He would tell the R * ht Hon . Member ai , d the country tl at the people would not submit to it—( hear , hear . ) He . would tell th-j Rkht Hi-n . Gemlcinan that , they would not BUbmit l ;» ic iu Cumbcriauii ; they wotiM not submit to ic in YotiiLire—( Lear . ) He would t-. ! l bim that the same y ;?" rit which actuated trie bc > ard of guardians o * tr whicli he i > rfj ! Hl .: d -svwuUl actuate every man who bad any feeling fur the poor— ( ht ar , hear . ) Hu would , for a rueuiint , aVuCf . V ? wL . it hs considered an extrarrdicary circun : s ::. nce ; : uu 1 tbat was , that when the Noble Lord , tbe i ; imber for London , on tbe 21 f > t of

      July , 1810 , ni >> Ted the third reading- of the New Poor L-a--v Commitsiun Coi . tii uiviice Bill , tbetewerc absent it- j fo : l ' , \ v \ v . g intruders < f the prestnt GoverErneiit , —Sir R . P . ul . S : ? J Gi"iSiau > , Lord Stanlt-y . SirF . Pollock , awl Sir \ V . F-. 'llttVt TiiRtw ! is au extrienUnary circumstanco ; but that Vt-vy circuiu . ^ tance wua the cause of hundreds cf votta bticg ^ ivtll fur the suj piTters of tbe Government at tht- ias « t election . —( bear , hear , hear . ; He b ; m > t lf thrn arid to his constituents , " Trust in the Cons-ivat ves ; > t » u Luvo tried the Whigs for ten years , hnd tbry have given you the New Poor Law and measures that ha \ e been to your * re : > t itijury . " Their answer was , Yi s ; but Sir K . Peel will not say anjthinjj at all" . " ( "Hear , " ; md a laflgb . ) Ho replied , " Trust to him ; l . o does not promise

      everything &nd pi-rfcrm n < thinjr ; but he promises nothing , and will perform tventhing . ' ( Great laughter . ) But what said the lirsriit Hon . Baronet at the hc-ad of the G ^ vtrimn Et o 5 > the 8 th of-Pubrnary , on tbe bill of tbb Nubie Lord the M > -niber for Locilon , to continue the PoerLaw C lnii . i .- 'Lion f . > r ttn years ? " He said— " It was ntct-ssarj- for him to state , however , that in voting for the sc-c ; jt : d readwg , he reserved to him 3 eJf tbe fullest ripht of jud ^ inj ; of the propri ety or of rejecting any of the clauses , and of dissenting from any provisions by wlichthe power of the present law was to be i .-creased or amended . He doubted paiticularly the propriety ef continuing the commission far so Jong a tiuia He did not nu-an to say , that after on exptri-me of a furthi r continuance for a short period be

      mitht not come to the conclusion that the powers given t « y the present law should still exist ; and that tbe ccntinuaLce nf the coniKiissioiiers might not be advanlarteus , or that he mi ^ bt nut deem such further continuance advb-: ible ; but it would , in his opinion be n : ort consonant to the opinion of the country tliat the sufjirct shtnld again , at a short period , come necessarily urder thy cousideraiion of the House . " "Then , " said the people , " Lord J . Russell proposed a cont nuance of thb 1-: 11 for t n ytara . Sir R . Peel only proposes it for five , and afterwards we shall come down to do years all . " ( Liughter ) However , the Right Hor . Bironet ippBBled to pul lie opiaica , and long before he i . irt bo , he to !' ' the people that the battle of the constitution vastc be fought in the registration couits . Now ,

      the great areMntnt of tfee petfcens who conducted those courts in the N < rtb . oC England "was that thu particular ) r , w was contrary to the coiiatitution . ( Hear . ) Public opinion then carried tbeRitht Hun . Batonet intopwwir . He wi uM ask him vrb . it was public opinion now in the Noith of Er-glu ^ d 1 ( Hear . ) It was almost unanimous in oi'p . 'Ht'n to this Bill —( Hear , hear . ) And he would tch ti ;» --H' *? ht Hon . Baronet that if ho carried this law into the N ^ rth of England , his Government would not < x st two y . ars- ( hear , hear . ) He bu-Utved that that vrouid be the case . Was . the Right Hon . Baronet aware of the state of public tetling in the north of E £ l ? £ d wherever this law bad been introduced ? Was he avare , t ( , o , that that fetl-ng w _ s incrvasirg rapidly in the fcou \ h of England ?—( heur , btar . ) B . cause it

      saved the public pockets to a small amount , it vcas said to vrotk welL He fchould be "very glad to hear what the Hosi . and Learned Member for Bath Wvuld say upon the subject . It was said by some" Oh ! it works well in our neighbourhood : —leave well alone , " But how had it worked well ? By saving the monty of tbe ratepayer— ( hear . ) It was entirely opposed to the constitution of this country , and tbat he meant to hbow , if it were allowed—zs \ he hoped it would not be—to go to a third reading—( aear , hear . ) Was ttieRifcbt Him . Baronet awaru that the Conservative press of the country was almost universally against him L . pon this subjtct ? Was be aware that the daily press "was taking up this question , and must work its way through public opinion ?—ihear ) . Was he aware

      that the weekly press was taking it up , and mubt shake him in his position ? ( Hear , near . | Because , if be were not , he could tell bim that it was BO , and that no Government coul . i stand long under such circumstances , iric'ar . ) He wtuM give him t" * o yt-ars to destroy the public feeling which hid been raised in his favour . < Hc-ar . ) He could cot resist puMic opinfon , and the opinion of the press of this country ; and he must ultimately yield to it . ( Hear . ) Ho wished now to havt a few words with the Ri ^ ht Hon . Baronet the Secretary f . rtbe Home Department . The Right Hon . Barontt had , ; he other evening , in rather . lie must say , a warm manner , attacked him for ugh ' . g what be ternieii violent means for exciting an opposition to this measure ( as we understood ) . He plainly confessed that since this

      iaw passed he had tiben a determined and firm stand upon thiii question ; he bad addressed a public meeting of guardians , and told them , tbat by tvery constitut oi . al means in his power ho weuld resist tbe measure ; but at the same time he preached te them in the best manner be could the necessity of obedience to the iiitfs . Was it right f « r the Right . Hon . Baronet to attack him for that ? The Right Hon Baronet forgot that he hlmseif had lived in a glass hcuse . ( Hear , and lauibtrr . ) He must remember that he waa a member of the Reform Miuistry . How did the Government at tbat time inflame tho minds of the people ? Was it not a fact ti-at they were in correspondence with , the men wLo said tbat there Were thousands ready to march to London for the purpose of cramming the Rtform

      Bili o ' own the threats of the ptcp ^ e ? And did not the GjYfciEinent givu tium tbeir thanks 1 ( Ccews . ) "We ntVer refusea , ( said tbe Hon . Gentleman ) to pay our rau-s in Bnppert of the poor of this country ; v ? e never have excited the people to attack the Monarch while passing through the &treets of the Metropolis ; nay , we have Dever advised the monarch , for the purjjosa of currying a measure , to swamp one branch of tho Ltgisiature ^ ( Hear ) We never have attempted to bulty thb House of Peers : nor have wo advised a circular to tit , written to one brauch of the L ^ g ic-lnture asking thfcin to forget their duty to th ' .-uiselves and to ifatir country . ( Htar . hear . ) No ; I teil the Rijht Hon . Baionet I stand upou firmer ground . I appeal to tbe Constitution cf the country , and taking 1117 stand under tbe banner

      of that Constitution , 4 BFi 6 weal or come woe , I will Suht the battle of the people . ( Hear . ) [ Sir R . Peel htre lose nud left tha Housh ] Tne Right Hon . Baronet has gone a uiinute too soon . ( Laughter . ) For what oid the Right Hon . Gentleman say in the debate that l ( jL . k place on this subject March 19 th . 1811 ? Ha said , ' - Ha should consider tfca large powers entrusted to tiitm , and . ha \ Liig dtvtlved these powers , the greater thty were tht-more je-. iousy must Par . iament exercise with respect to their application , &n-i the greater the readiness with which they must listen to any a . legations of abuse . While he consented to the prolonged duration of tlie commission for five years , he must say that be wished the commissioners would watch the expressions thry made use of with a little more circumspection . He thought that with the best intentisns there was occasionally & harshness displayed in tbe "vindication of certain principles which might be avoided

      consistently with the maintenance of the law , and tee avoidance of which would tend to fortify the powers of the commissioners . To give an illustration of this , be -would take for instance an official circnlar published by the Poor Law Commissioners , one of those public documents directed by the board to be printed chiefly for the use of the guardians . In one of those papers he found the following expressions : —• One principal etject of & compulsory provision for th « relief of destitution is the prevention of almsgiving . ' Why , he heard the Noble Lord ( J . Russell ) himself state that the Poor Law would completely fail in effect if the ; "ffl-ient withheld tbeir alms . Tbat was perfectly true ; and he should abominate the Poor Law if be thought it relieved the rich from the duty of almsgiving . He wat perfectly certain the Poor Law would fail if the Effluent relying upon its provisions alone , however improved the system of administration might be , felt that the moral obligation on them to attend tc the wants of tbeir poarer neighbours "Wen

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      thereby extinguished . " What , he would ask ( pro ^ ctseded the Eon . inembe *) had become ef almsgiving : ? What Xf&a the result of the Queen's letter for a collection for the distress * d manufacturers ? Why , the New Poor Law bad dried up the springs of charity ^ - ( bear ) and the poor were to become priiftnerg , and wear a prison dress—men who had committed no other crime than taking advantage of tha negle « t of duty of their superiors , and to choose as their means of existence the poor-rates of the parish ,: which were given to them by their superiors under the old law . If the rich forgot tbeir duty—If they broke the law—if the magistrates , who were the guardians and protectors c-f the laws of this country , forgot th 9 ir duty in the south of England , could they wonder that the poor man forgot hia duty

      too ¦?— ( hear , heir . ) He cared not who the man was who had not rather rite in ease than earn his bread by tbe sweat of bis brOw . Providtnce bad prdalned that Uiej ( the Members of the House of Comjnons ) fihould not earn their bread by the sweat of their brow ; but if through His beneflctnee He bad placed in the hands of certain parts of the population of thia country the meaDS of existing without such , labour ^ depend upon it they would have to give a true account of their stewardship— ' ( hear . ) He bad that night given bis reasons for opposing the continuance of the powers of the com-Hiission . In the mttjority of the Government there Would be some who were generally . 'their opponents , but wh » advocated , this-measure ; .. but he would bee from

      the opponents of the . Government their votes upon thia occasion . The Right Hon . Baronet might find on those ( the Ministerial ) benches some who would find it difficult to f-xpiaih away their votes to their constituents;—( hear , hear ) - ^ and who would stand by him in flghtiiig this 1 battle against . the COnBtitutioti of their country ; but the time would come when old English feelings would return—when they would ask themselves whether they bad performed their duty as members of society ? and whether they would stand by a Minister of the Crown , whatever his political opinions might be , who was disposed to dtfer to the opinions of a few against tbe feelings of a vast majority of the country ? —( hear ; ¦ . ¦ ¦' -. ; ^

      Colonel Wood ( Middlesex ) said he hoped the measure "Would be taken into tho immediate consideration Of tbe House , jlie must say that ; he thought the New'Ponr Law was a very ^ reat advantage to the poor , and It had materially added to their comforts . Mr . Wort lev Would glye his vote with the Hon . Member for Finunury , in the present state of the question before th « Houbs . Mr . Wakley said that tbe next election the gallant Colonel ( Wood ) Would be defeated in consequence of his advocacy of this Hieasure , and Honourahlo Gftntlcnien should be very guarded in their actions . There would he great difEculty , in preterving the peace of tho country There were hungry thousands now , but soon there would be hungry millions . ' Is such a law

      calculated to preserve tbe peace of the country ? Ho hoped the Hon . Baronet did not think so . Considering the awful prospect which the state of the country presented , he was willing to vote for tbe continuance of tbe present law for one year longer . This was a question of vital importance , involving the welfare and happiness of myriads of the people ; and he hoped tbe Right Hon . Baronet would take the matter into his most soiious consideration . He would ask this question— "Are we legislating with a conviction that the poor of this country have a right to relief ? The Hon . Member for Bath denies it . Now , ho would say that his ( the Hon . Member ' s ) mind is so constitutor that he is not fit to legislate for the poor . It had been complained ot by a commissioner , that " paupers

      insolently claim relief as a righl ! " Now , if you admitted this , who could be responsible for starving them . Now , if there was nothing else than this , ho . wyuid vote apabst the contiuuahce of the commissioners for six years , unless a man who had dared to mako such a statement , was dischargtd . He quoted details from Sir . Mott ' s report , to prove the existence of monstrous and scandalous abuses in the prtaent system . The House may be assured ( he said ) that the existing distress is dreadful ! Hundreds of poor traversing the couurty Wall directions , sleeping iu the bands , and sheds ; and they said they would rather die than go into tbe

      union workhouses ! It was ; impossible that the bill Cuuld bo disposed of this session , and he would recommend ( though unwillingly ) ita continuance for one year Sir T . CocuRaNE contended-that' relief afforded to the people should be such as would be agreeable to them . He wished to know whether they consider ; d it as a booh ? and be reg rotted to say tbat be thought it was not the case . Much bad been said about tho abuses of the old law ; but this was a poor argument in favour of the imp-cifeclionB of tbe new one . He thought that the pow shouid . be taught habits of industry and sobriety . Ho should Tote against the resolution .

      Mr . RoEBVCK referred to the conduct ot the former ffovemment . When the measure was first brought before the House , it w : w con » iderfcd one of great danger to the eonntry ; ' retribution was now coming upon them ; for they had -ma

      very fond ot the commission / The poor should be maintained in such a manner as should preserve industrious habits , and not foster idle ones . The question was , how we should provide for the destitution which prevailed ; and , at the same time cbeak habits cf idleness ? He would give the reliof , because'it was to the interest of : tbe copimunity that it should bo given . The principle of the Poor Law should be , that it should discourage the impositions of tbe designing and idle , and , at the same time , afiurd reiitf to those who were really destitute .

      Sir R . Peel hoped that in the progress of the New Poor Law bill no factious opposition would be offered to it . The general opinion of the country , he contended , was favourable to the measure , and- the proof of this he found in the insignificant number of petitions which had been presented to the House against it . The Hon . Gentleman who had spoken last wished to know why he ( Sir R . Peel ) hail not-influenced tbe party who followed him more in f * vour of the m-asnre than they were . He confessed that he did not thiiik tho gentler men of England were so easy drilled into an opinion . ( Ironical cheers from the opposition . 1 He saw no reason why he should exert his censorship over Honourable Gentlemen vrho sat on hia side of the House . With regard to this question , he did not think that he had power to do so . The Noble Lord opposite bad not been . more successful in this particular than bliuself . With respect to th « Usu made of the cry

      against the Poor Law last election by gentlemen on this side of the House , he could only say that he should be ashamed of his place if he thought that he had glined power by tucb inrans . He : had never for a moment given his sanction to such a course of proceeding ; on the conbary , he had taken opportunities of stiting his concordance with the principlei of that bill . Inthe general election of 1837 , he stated on tho hustings his conviction ef its juitice , and that he . would . give it bis cordial support . In the election « f 1841 , be gave his support to the Government on every occassion on which ! it waa brought forwwd . H « was Burprised at the ignorance of some Hon . Members as to the degree in which the ariactnsenta of Elizabeth are rfepaited from in the present . ' measure .- It was well to look at these enactments by way of forming a comparison between them and tUe present law . In these enactments he avii 7 no recognition of a right to relief without giving labour for it . If such had been the case there would

      have been an end ; to society ( hear , hear . ) It was not so , however ; so little was tho principle recognised of an indefeasible right to relief on the part of the poor , that they , even required the children to be apprenticed to some banoicTaft . Th ' . re was no d ff « rence in principle in the existing law and the old one of Elizabeth . The { xisting law was a great chuck upon local . abuay . He ( Sir R . P . ) hoped tbty would not wish to return to the old system—they were osked to tiust to ihe good English feeling and all that stuff . Th « Right ' . 'Hon .. Bart , then read some abstraets from Mr . Mott ' s report

      of the KeiRhiey Union—a union Which had long resisted the influence of the poor law . A Uoion of which the Hon . Member for Knaresborough was the chairman , and which he had Bjioken so highly of . Mr . Mott ' s letter unfolds some of the most frightful scenes of immorality and vice in that very Union . How wmld that union contrast with those which were under tho management of tho new poor law ? He thought the Hon . Member forKnaresWbuvb . would nave been bettbr . employed in remedying those abiues which should have come unrter his eye , in bis capacity as chairman , than in babbling of green fields . "

      MB . '; FERRAN » ' sa * d , as " > ' conduct had been animadverted upon by the Right Hon . Baronet , he should say a few words iu Gxplanation . If the allegations in Mr . Mjti's report , Wore correct aii'V capable of proof , they were . . -worthy oi' aerioua coiieideration . But ho believed tliat the guardian , of the Kesglifcy Union would be ablo to clear themselves of the aspersions heapud upon them . Lobd Howick . said thai no time , so much as the present , required the greatest caution in the management of the distribution of relief , when tne country was in such a state that the rates had increased in a frightful degree . The sources from which relief Sowed were growing more scant , whiJe the recipients were hourly on tho increase . He thought in iuch

      a state of thing ? , there was the greatest necessity ot a cautious and economical system of relief , such as that practised by the commissioners . Nothing would be m 010 productive of additional misery to the country than a relaxed administration of the poor law . Ho did not entertain the idea that the Right Hor . Baronet could be expected to be answerable for every speech made by hia side of the house . But he . " did think it strange that his ( Sir R . Peel ' s ) influence was not greater with those who were nearly connectnd with him . He thought the Right Hon Baronet could not take credit lor himself for having discouraffed the vulgar outcry against the New Poor Law at the last election , rie should , however , support the Bill .

      Sir E . Knatchbuii said he rose to give an answer to some imputations thrown out against him by the Noble Lord who had j ust spoken . It had been imputed to bim that he was inconsistent in supporting a measure now which lie had formerly opposed . He begged to say the Noble Lord was in error . He

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      had always given his opinion in favour of the general principle of the Poor Law ; like other members , he had yiews of his own as to the details . After a few words from Mr . Cabby and Captain Pgllabd , ; ' ' ¦ ¦ ' . ¦ : ¦ - ' . -: ' .: ¦ ¦ . ;' . . - ' : ¦ ¦ ¦; ' /¦; "¦ . "•' ; ' . Mr . O'CosNEti , said he agreed with the motion of the Hon . Member for Finsbury . He did so , however , more with respeot to Ireland , in which country the Poor Law was a new scheme . He had from the first been opposed to that scheme , as irreconcilable to the feelings of the people of Ireland . He had prophesied that commotions would follow the introduction of this system ,, and he was only afraid those prophesies were working themselves out . He feared that a revolt would be produced by that measure , more terrible in it ' s results than anything that they had ever before seen in that unhappy country . . ¦ _ . . ' . ' _

      Lord Elltot said he must rise to defend the Poor Law Commissioners of Ireland against the attacks of the -Hon . Member for Cork . They had followed up their labours in a spirit of candour and earnestness , andi as far as the experiment of the poor law had been tried in that country , it had been perfectly successful . They had few able-bodied men in their workhouseg , but these were not the kind of persons they wished to bavo , but the laine and the infirm . His lordship concluded by complimenting Mr . O'Connell f « r the forbearance he [ had shown in not Opposing wliat he did . not agreewith . . Mr . CoBDENsaii they lost aight of "what was tho real motion to nights The Hon . Member for Finsbury had spoken of the awful state Of : the country .

      but the Government had not thought fit to put asi-ie oiio niglit to discuss scmo measure for that relief . The Right Hon . Baronet had promised to " give his pill-. when , he had got his fea" —bad he given those remedial measures ? Tho distress had increased progressively every month since the Hon . Baronet came into office , and it was their duty to take it into consideration ; bnt ho apprehended the session was too far advanced for that purpose . The manufacturers had contributed largely to the relief of the poor , for one had subscribed £ 300- The -Hob ' . Gentleman concluded a very ' eloquent speech by an effecting appeal to the House iu behalf of the poor people in the northern districts , now suffering the most appalling distress and privations .

      Mr . Crawford ross amidst loud cries of "Divide , divide . " He said there were large districts where the people were starving . The poor houses had not the means of relieving the poor . A well-regulated poor law would give reliefj but the present had not produced the effect . Grjneral Johnson supported tha motion of the Hon Member for Finsbury . ( Divide divide *) Mr . Fielden moved an adjournment , of the debate . After a few words from Mr . Ferrand , Col . SiHTHOKfcK and Mr . Wakley , Thb House divided , when there appeared ^ -For the adjournment , 29 ; Against it , 297 . Tiio House resumed , when Sir . C . Napier moved an adjournment of the House

      Sir R . Peel saicj a great deal of time was lost in divisions ; but , if it . suited the convenience of the House , he should propose that this question ( the Poor Law ) be adjourned till Monday next , which would necessarily eause the postponement of the new tariff . Mb . Doncombe said a few words in reply , and after a i ' ew observations from several Honourable Members , the debate was adjourned till Monday . On tho third reading of the Railway Bill , Sir H . Haudinge moved a clause providing that officers and soldiers travelling by railway shall with their baggage , &o ., be conveyed at the ueual hours of starting , at pritea contracted for by the secretary-atwar , on production of a note signed by the proper authorities-After some discussion the clause was agreed to , and the bill was passed .

      The Mines and Collieries Bill was brought up and received , with amendments . Tho other orders of the day were then disposed of , and the House adjourned , at a quarter past two o ' clock .

      onday , June 27 . Mr . Roebuck brought up a special report from the Election Compromisea Committee , stating that Mr . Walter , who bad been summoned , refused to attend , and give evidence . The main ground on which Air . Walter refused was , the expression used by Mr . Roebuck , 'during the last sssion of Parliament , when on his being attacked in the Times , he bad recommended the horsewhipping of Mr . Walter , its chief proprietor . The House ordered the attendance of Mr . Walter , and then some conversation arose on the aubject of the inquiry before the Election Compromises Committee being conducted with closed dcors .

      Mr . KoeijUCK stated thst the committee had come to a uiianiinoua resolution that the inquiry would be best conducted in that manner , though they did not dispute the right of anyvMember of the House being present . The proeeediuKS were ordered to be printed with the votes for the usd of members only . The adjourned debates on the Poor Law Amendmert Bill was resumed by '¦ ¦'¦¦ . ¦ : Mr . Fielden , who rose to answer the spesehes of the Hon . Member , 'fot Bath ( Mi . Roebuck ) and the Right Han . Baronet the Member for Tamworth . He would : take-that .. . « f the Hon . . ' Member'for Bath first That Hon . Member had spoken with great '' confidence on the buI ject of the New Poor Law , but in his ( Mr . Fielden ' s ) opinion with little sense . He ( Mr . Fielden )

      doubted the Hon . Member ' s experience of the labouring poor . He wanted to . know wbat means ho had of knowing their habits , feelings , wants , and condition . Was the Hon . Member engaged in such occupations as would bring him necessarily in daily Contact with labouring persons ? No ; he understood from the Hon . Member that he was a lawyer , and he ( Mr . Fjelden ) would not-admit tliat a lawyer was , in the " course of his occupation , brought into that : relationship with the labouring poor that wouldi give him the means of . legiSr lating in their case . He ( Mr . Fielden ) claimed to be heard upon this question , because he felt confident that be did know much of the labouring people . He had been in business as a manufacturer ever since tke year 1803 , and he was so now . He and bis partners had

      always employed great numbers of hamls , and for some years past they bad constantly in their employment some thousands ; and , so long as he had a seat in that House , he would by speech and vote resist a law which was based upon the false and wicked assertion that the labouring people of England , or any material part of them , were inclined to idleness and vice ; and he felt that he owed them too much to sit patiently by while this commission was proposed to be continued . Ho believed that tbe New Poor Law had 'been most oppressive , and that it was founded eh the most failacioua principles . The Hon . Member for Bath spoke first of the new law being both wise and humane , and he tohi the House that , being a lawyer , he wished to be answered by facts . As to the humanity of the law , he

      ( Mr , Fielden ) would give one fact , and he begged to be underfitood as giving one fact of many that he could produce . In 1836 there lived in the parish of Eyersholt , in tho Woburn Union , a widow of the name of Susan Deacon . She had been relieved by the parish before tne Union was formed , but , as the new law came into operation , her allowance was reduced down as lew as Is . a-week . In the night of the 25 th of December iii that year that poor woman threw herself into a moat iii the garden of the rector of the : parish . a guardian of the union . It was a bitter cold night , and the weather frosty . Her body broke through the ice , and when taken out , it was found that she must have ririn frem her bed to drown be . rself , as she was dressed in her night clothes . The coroner ' a jury

      wished to return a verdict , stating the circumstances that caused her to drown herself—that was , the refusal of the board of guard ians to grant her the accustomed relief ; but tha coroner persuaded them to return a verdict of insanity . The jury , however , immediately after , being touched with sympathy for a poor and respected neighbour , signed a ! f d circulated this paper , of which he ( Mr . Fittlden ) bad a ; copy : — " We , the undersigned jiirymen on the body of-Mrs . Deacon , of Hill'a-end , Ev-iTsholt , who drowned herself in . the Rsv , J . Reed's iii ^ oat , on last Monday morning , through distress of lninrt , in consequence of having been refused a shilling per week bythesiidJ . Reed and the other guardians of the poor for Erersholt parish , have given our verdict ' Iosane ; ' and , out of compassion and respect to

      tbe deceased , in order to prevent her goods from being taken fsiiuv her orphans to defray the funeral fxpencea , have oonttihuted' 6 d . each towards bur ) iug her . The Ruiatlesi'i conttibution from any perBon who can' feel for such a case will be moaV thankfully received by tho jurymen . Should there he more co'itctcd than will pay her funeral expences , it will be k iv < en to her poor children . " He ( Mr . . Fit'lden ) had offered to prove this easebefore the Poor Law Committee , bnt was frustrated , Mr . Buil had attempted to ijet it before a committee ef the Lords ,, but be had also been frustrated . T tie paper , however , circulated by thB jurymen sputko for itself ; and he ( Mr . Fielden ) adduced that one case as a specimen of the humanity of the nevrfaw . Tby Hon . Member then spake of the

      " prcblem how to relieve the bonest able-bodied without giving encouragement to idleness by relieving the idle vagabond . " He isaid that " the Reformed Parliament had looked tL is difficulty in the face , " and that " ' "be wished it to b « particularly shown how the difflcuitiss of this question would be met , except by imposing such restrictions on the administration of reli-f as wouid mak < i its reception not more agreeable "than the exercise of honest industry . " He ( Mr , Fielden ) maintained ; first ; that the Parliament had not met the difficulty in the face , but had created a board of three couimisstoherH to do so , or to do as they liked . The

      Parliament had proposed to it a bill abolishing outdour relief after the 31 st of July , 1835 ; but it exponged that part of the bill , and left it to the comrni « Bion « rs to make the law . But , as the Hon . Member praised the law and the commissioners and their doings , hu mi « ht be taken to approve of the prohibitory order for stopping out-deor relief to ali able-bodied poor unless in the workhouse , iand of the regulations and discipline which they had ordered to be observed in the workhouses . The flon * Member ; in fact , approvod of the workhouse test , the " self-acting test , " as the commissioners called it , which waa to sift tbe honest and bard-working man from tne idle vagabond . Let him ,

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      then , examine the practical operation of that Ust , for he ( Mr . Fielden / beliovedi ^ to be a most atrociouB cruelty on the ho . 'ert and xrilUng workniao , and productive of infioite mischief to the country . He wonld take the two cases supposed by the Hon . Member himself . Here were two applicants foi relief , both coming to the board of guardians at the same time ; both have families , both are able-boditd ; but ^ ne is an honest hard- working man , who cannot get rT ™ ?? v Tirl an va ^ on * . * bo - ;< wBi net work if he can help it . What does the board do ? It « ould not giva anything but tha workhouse test and itar discipline , its separation , and its diet to both . It must give the same to both . Now would coma the operation of sifting , and the proof bf the sound principle and prilosopfay of the new law . Which of the two would

      go into the house ? If both go in , taeh the law punishes the honest man jn . vt as ^ it did the vagabond . If the honest man went In , and the idle vagabond was driven to maintain himself , then the honest man only was published . . If the vagabond went in and submitted to the discipline of the workhouse for the sake of idleness , then he would ask ^ where did . the honest and willing wotkman go to—the man who was admitted to be hone » t , the man who would do work if he could set it ? He ( Mr . Fielden ) would ask whither had you driTea that man ? He would tell them . In a table published by the comm'ssionersin the sixth annual report there was a column containing the number of va ^ ranta and paupers relieved not belonging to any parish inthe union , and it gave the numbers in Christmas quarter , 1838 . and in the same quarter , 1839 , from fonrteen counties in

      England ana Wales ; the total showed that in 1838 there were 1 , 705 vagrants or casual poor , and in 1839 no less than 3 , 111 , beinganmcrease of 1 , 406 , or 82 per cent . The admirable system had driven the willing workman to become a wanderer in search of work ; and , failing iu that , it had made him , whose virtue was confessed , a vagrant gathering alms ia . the quality of casual poor . 1 hat was the wisdom and the philosophy of this law . i But it was the idle vagabond that the Hon . Member fer Bath wished to punish . Very well {¦ the Hon . Member , being a lawyer , knew duu ^ Ies 3 that there ; Was the Vagrant Act in force when the NewPoor Law was passsd , and in force still > by wbica all vagabonds were amply punished ; Aye , but that law would not meet the whole mass of the

      ablebodiert . No ; nor should it . Another assertion of the Hon . Member for Bath was , that the outcry against the new law was not raised by the honest and indn 9 triou 8 poor , but by Belf-interested persons of a dishonest sort , who had been destroyed by the operation of ; the new law . He ( Mr Fielden ) would how read to the Houso a short paper : that had been written Iby a labouring man of , he believed , the Dies Union , in Norfolk , and printed at the txpence of one ot tne Guardian ^ , and which had been sent to him ( Mr . Fielden ) by a clergyman residing in the Union . It ' was-as follows : —

      "POOR LAW AMENDMENT . ' ACT .: .. , . ' .-.. -:.. ¦ - ' " " Since the New Poor Law , the honest , Industrious able-bodied poor are ranch oppressed , through the or Jerg Qf the Poor Law Commissioners . It frequently happens from severity of the weather , that the farmer is unabl 8 to find , employment , the poor man , under such circumstances , having a large family , is rendered totally unab e to support them honestly ; and when he appeals t <> the Cruardians , all the relief be can gtt is to leave Jbi * house and little furnitur « , and be made a prisoner in the Union Workhouse . I therefore think that the Board Of

      Guardians ought to be empowered to relieve t&e poor man without forcing him from bis house and home till the farmer may be enabled to employ him , and ' the weather will permit him ; to work . I , Thomas Cock , cau prove that during the last two months I have lost halt my timei therefore take the liberty to inforin the public that the parishes of Bressingbam and Fersfleld iuteod to eend a peUtion to Government ; and earnestly hope that other parishes will do the same , praying that the industrious poor may be relieved without being sent to the workhouse . ¦'" . ; . ' : . " ¦¦ ' . ¦ . " -.- . '' 'c

      " Thomas Cock , " Labourer , Bressingbam , Feb . 9 , i 841 . Now ,. be ( Mr , Fielden ) thought that simple statement not only proved that the Honoura' le Member for Bath knew nothing of the feelings of the honest labouring poor on this question , but that he was wholly uninformed upon the subject on which he bo confidently talked . He would now come to the speech of the Risht Hon . Bart , the memr ^ r for Tamworth ,. who had sai 4 tbat he thought the people of this country were in favour of the commissioners , because he fouud , that leaving out the petition of the 3 , 000 , 000 , there had been only 108 petitions that session against the coniiniestoners . signed by 25 , 000 names , Now , the fact was , according to the committee of petitions , that upt 6 the 10 th of June there were that session 135 petitions

      against the new law and the bill before the honse , containing 36 , 344 signatures , and there had been many presented since , of which no report had" been made The petition of the 3 , 300 , 000 required a total alteration of the constitution of that House ; and it alleged ; as one of its . reasons for desiring : the chnnge , that the House as at present coustituted had passed the unconstitutional New Poor Law . Was not that a pretty strong expre 88 ioh of public feeling against the commissioners ? The 3 , 300 , 000 not only desired to abolish the commissioners , but the vory construction of the assembly which had made them . But be would call the attention of the Heuae to the nninb&r of petitions in former years , all in effect-against the New Poor Law , an immense majority for . total repeal , and others for alterations which would defeat its principle .

      . Years Petitions Persons . J 834 , 172 ... ^ 16 156 1835 , 16 15 680 183 G ... ... 119 ... ... 27 574 1837 ... ... 285 ... ... 270096 1838 ... ... 340 ... > u 264 . 100 1839 ... ... 136 ... ... 30 000 1840 ... ... 190 17 000 1841 ... ... 895 ... ... 286 . 646 1842 ( to 10 th June > 185 ...... 36 , 344 To * these should be added the two national petitions , the first with upwards of 1 , 250 , 000 signatures , and the second with 3 , 300 , 000 . Now , the petitions in favour of the new law , or somewhat in favour of i *» were ^ . - . '"¦ , - . ' . ¦ . ¦ ¦" . ; " . . .. - ..- ''¦ . " : - - - ., ¦ . . ¦'¦ ¦ "'' ¦'¦ . " Yearp . Petitions . Person ^ . 1834 ... ... 2 ... ... 16 1835 0 ... ... 0 1836 . . . .. . 0 ... ... 0 1837 ... , „ 35 ... ... 950 1838 ... ... 23 ... ... 1 . 184 1839 ... ... 0 ... ... 0 1840 ... . . . 0 ... ... 0 J 841 ... ... 72 ... ... 467 ' .-. 1842 Tto June 10 ] 0 ... ... 0

      He thought that was an answer to the Right Hod . Barontt as to the pub ic feeling on the whole of ' tbf * law , and it waa also an answer to the Right Hon . Home / Secretary as to the direct remedy generally demanded upon the publication of the report of the Poor Law Commission of Inquiry in 1834 . He wonid now go to other parts Of the Right Hon . Baronafa speech . He said , Do you speak of this bill as depriving the poor of any of the advantages which thef enjoyed under the law of Elizabeth ? '' Yes , he did . The law of Elizabeth made the overseers set tha ablebodied poor on work , and it made them buy materials for the purpose . Under that law the overseers had no authority to imprison and seperate them , man from wifc * , and parent from chilri , as a condition of givina them

      that work . The 9 tk of George I . gave the bverstjers authority to administer relief only in a workhouse . The 36 th of George III . repealed this law , stating ia its preamble that much hardship had been iuflxted on . poor persons by withholdipg relief unless they would go into a workhouse . Then came the . N ? w PoJr L * w , and the Parliament not being bold enough to re-eDapt the 9 th of George I . enacts that Poor Law Commissioners shall have authority . ' ¦ to declare to what extent relief shall be given , to able-bodied peraons out of the workhousea , " and that they shall hava power tomake rules for the governing of those workhouses , which was , in fact , committing the able-bodied poor of the kingdom to the will of that Beard ; He did say that that had deprived the po . > r of advantWf s

      that they had under the 43 d of Eiizibeth ; andi if tha Right Hon . Baronet meant to cententi that that the new law was the same : 1 b principle as the 43 d of E » z- « - beth , ltt him remind the Right Hon . Gentlemau th = it L » rd Brougham , in bringing the new law into ' t ' . House of Lords , in 1834 , spoke of the 43 d of Ei zibettt as that '«• accurted law , " not a phrase likely to be used by . one who was proposing a law similar in principle . The 'Right Hon . Baronet had referred tothe mismanagement of the poor inthe Kwighley Union , taking the iaformation of a Poor Law Commission , r , and he argued that thtse things could not be redressed if we had cut the commissioners . But had not the R'Kht Hoa .-B ; iranet heard of worse things occurrini ? : under the Poor Law Commissioners themselves ? Had he never heard

      of the horrible deaths at ; Bridgewater ? Of the tntol gruel of the Commissioners ? And did not the Commissioners do everything in their pewer to stiflo inquiry and hide the facts from the public ? What did they d « ' at Seyenoaks , which was under the inspectiou » i one of their own assistants ? Remember the swollen throata of the' children , the treatment of the lying-ia women—& title so harrowing and disgusting that one scarcely llkedto dwell upon the detail . Then again inquiry was forced on the Ctommisaioners , and tbe greatest attempts were made to stifle it Yet the Right Hon . Baronet appeared to look on the Commissioners as a Board whose duty It was to drag to light and hold up to public view the illtreatment of tha poor whenever It might occat

      That was ijew ground—quite a new function ; but he quoted the Commissioners' reports from the Keighley Union , and asked how these things were to be brought to light but by the commissioners ? His ( Mr . Fielden ' s ) answer was , the Bridgewater and Sevenoaks cases were brought to light , not by the commissioners , bnt in gpite of them , and that if the commsasion were ; abolished tc-morrow , the same good feeling and natural abhorrence of cruelty which held up Bridgewater and Sevenoaks to public gaze would bring to light such cases as that of Kejghlw , supposing it all to be true . Bat if the Right Hon . Baronet was very anxious that the cases of hardship in managing thvpoor should be brought to light , w * uld he how insist on bringing fnliy to light that which be iMr . Fielden ) believed would develope a tale of folly ( Continued in our Seventh Page . )

      5mji?N'Al Dgarliamcnt.

      5 mji ? n ' al dgarliamcnt .

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      _ 6 _ J T H E NORTH E R N ST AR , _ ~ _______ ^_— i

  • Citation
    • Northern Star (1837-1852), July 2, 1842, page 6, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse-os.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct437/page/6/