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    others ( laughter ) . The present bill did not attempt to carry oat one-tenth of the recomHiend * iieiis of the commissiouMS , These courts , as lie had before stated , Were founded in corruption , and therefore the people had a right to complain of tie very limited extant to which " this bill "went . They had a light to complain Cist the jurisdiction ef these courts in a great "variety of ctses was not taken away by this bill It certainly Was taken away in questions of tithes , defamation , and smiting In a churchyard . Certainly It 'was qaite time t » get rid o ! the latter , for bew did the Honse think that these eonrti ¦ were empowered to punish an onWdei in this respect ? A roan « mi& 2 g another in a churchyard rendered himself liable to the loss of one of bis ears , anil if he should happen to baTe no ear , "be was

    to be branded on tbs cheek with the letter P . One of the alterations proposed in the bill , tpu to get rid of the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical conrts io Bucb cases . Be was not going into the question of the testimentary or matrimonial jurisdiction of those courts , "which it was proposed to maintain ; bni he -wonld only obserre that the commissioners recommended that the jurisdiction of the courts in both the ^ e particulars should be abolished . -But vhat the solus azimte , or the health of the jbouIs of her Majesty's subjects , might not be altogether neglected , thsy retained cognisance , and -were enabled to punish crininally "wider this bill in cases of simony , heresy , trawling , blasphemy , pejjury , drunkenness , incest , adultery , fornication , incontinence , and « ther evil habits ( laughter ) . Tqb jurisdiction of tbess courts in cases of church-rates was also to be continued . "Why did they continue chnreh-rates ? Had tha Bight Honourable and Learned fientleman heard

    what the ecclesiastical eommissionirs recommended ? Ukey recommended that the jurisdiction ol these courts should be abolished in such casts , or rather tbat they should be taken out of the jurisdiction of these tsouiis . Ths commissioners said i " Tha -whole subject of church-rates deBuusds immediate attention , for the mischiefs arising from the present state of the law are sapidly spreading *— ( bear , bear ; . He wished to know whether -what bad recently occurred with regird to these courts was calculated to lead to their obtaining public confidence ? There had been cases recently reversed by the civil courts on appeal frem the decisions -of the ecclesiastics } courts in questions of church rates . There were three decisions on this question , which had been made rather prominent , namely , the Braintree ' case , the Norwich case , and the very recent case of the appeal of Mr . Higgot , the shoemaker , of Bomford , -with respect to "which the Honourable and Learned : Member for

    Bitfc , "who was counsel m ths-case , would be enabled to give ths Hones some informatioa . Bat he washed to know why the jurisdiction of the ecdesiaatital courts in esses of church-rates should be continued ? He oould conceive no other reason why this should be kept tip , than tbat It occasionally promoted brawling ; and thus brought grist to the mill of the lawyers of -JXictorV Commons—( laughter ) . He would give a recent case of brawling wiich lid occurred from this cause . TijB X = p . Theodore Williams , the vicar of Headon , proc » eded against Mr . James Hail , s parishiener , for brawling at a vestry meeting , held for the purpose of making a -church-rate . Let the bouse look at the inquitons transactions which grrw out of these proceedings , and he would show this by the conduct of the vicar himself .

    He would ¦ venture to say tbat there never was worse conduct xianifest en the part of any person , and there never was a more absurd decision giv » n by a judge , than was given in that case by Dr . Lusbington . Mr . James Hall was cited before the court , by the Rev . Theodore "Williams . There was a meeting of the vestry , at which motion was made for a church-rate , to which an amendment had been proposed , that the consideration of the matter 6 : adjourned . This amendment was carried , and the vestry was abont to adjourn , when Mr . Williams , who had been expected to be present , but who was behind time , entered the Toon and took the chair , and was very angry . Words ensued between If r . Hall * nd the viiar , when the latter said that Mr . Hall was mistaken if be thought that be . held any place in Ms

    estimation . To this Mr . Hall replied : " Ton we anything but a gentleman ; your conduct is disgraceful to a clergyman and you are & disgrace to your cloth . " 11 r . 'Williams , at the tMn » meeting , had a quarrel with another parishioner . The ease wa » thVe : because llr . ~ Fit 1 b , in addreating tbe meeting , mads use of the word Hendon , and in the pronunciation thereof did not srpirate the H , Bounding it " Endon , " instead of Eendon , the vicar observed , in a sneering manner : " 1 beg pardon—1 beg pardon—there is so H in Hen * don ; " tj which Mr . Parlar replied , that "be did not receive bis education at the public expense . " And for this he was proceeded against for brawling , by Mr . ffi ! - liair-s—rbtar , bear ) . After being exposed to litigation in the Conautory Court , and after the Learned Judge bad partially acquitted Mr . Williams of blame , on Uie ground that he was aggravated to make an attack upon Mr . Farlar , in consequence of bis Dot showing proper respect , judgment waa given . Dr . lushington , in

    givinc . jcdgaissl , wss made to -speak as follewa : — " I am xmdtr the oecearity , therefore , of saying , that I am of opinion tLst the charge against Mr . Hall is proved by evidence , and then I come to this question—the question whether Mr . Hall baa any extenuating circumstances in the case which ought to induce me to withhold wiat otherwise would be the necessary sentence o ! ths Is *—a condemnation of Wail in vhe whole of tbs easts . 1 greatly regret that the prooeed-Ie £ 8 have gone to the length which tht > y have dors , but st the same time I do not know that blame is to be attributed to any person in consequence of Ehekngtb of the proceedings , beeanssifMr . Hall believed that bs had not made use of the express ! » n » , it wu cot unnatural that be should attempt to defend himself ; aad alto if anything was laid on tbe part of 31 t . Willisms which gave Mm just provocation , lie had undoubtedly a right in his own defence to plead that matter . Xow the expression—and I shall be glad if the counsel will correct me if I am . in error—the

    expression u as nearly a * possible this , upon whidx . it is rdi .-d as extenuating Mz . Hall's conduct : ' If you think you bolt any place in my estimation yon are Very much mistaken . ' Tkese are the words , aad that , so far as 1 cm recollect , is the sole ground upon wb « ch Mr . Hall resu for bis justification—so far as the words were addressed to himyn f . > iow I am first to look to see whether these words are proved as stated ; and I am of op ; sijn that they are proved as named by Mr . Hall I see 20 icason to doubt it , looking at tbe evidence on both sides . And if these words are proved , the nsxt f 2 = st 3 » n is , whether they are of that tenor and meaning as "would produce tbe effect contended for on behalf of -Mr . Hall . . Now here arises a considerable difficulty in this cue—the time and tha circumstances under which these words were spoken . I am utterly unable from a perusal of this evidence , to fix the time and

    circumstances accurately . It is argued on the ore side that these words probably followed an expression wMch had been used by Mr . Hall , which was very disparaging to the past officers of tbe parish of Hendon . Bnt I cannot say that I see that there is any necessary consection between them . 3 mnst tberef ore say that in my juiginent these were words of provocation . What-are Vords of provocation ? Words denoting contempt . And what so much excites irritated feelings as expressions of contempt for an individual ? There are many persons who would submit with infinitely greater pa-Uesce to words reflecting on their character . At the Kims &ns they could not , and it is not to be expected of tumas nature , submit with perfect patience and entire self-control to expressions denoting individual contempt . Kow 1 tbiiik that Mr . Williams has nsed these words , and 1 think that 1 am bound t * consider these words in

    pronouncing the judgmeni I am about to give ; and ths judgment 1 must pronounce is this : tbat ilr . Hall is to be suspended from entering tbe church for tbe space of one week , and I condemn iim in the whole of the costs , Bav £ jnd fcxcvpt , £ 3 D , with £ 30 I direct to be dsdnctad . vTfc&t -traa then the result ? Why £ 30 was to ba deducted from the coats of the reverend vicar , because he tad mi : " If yon tbitk that yen hold any place in my estimation , yon are very much mistaken . " * This was a ¦ Peciiiien of one of the eourte which it was proposed to Maintain under this Bill —( hear , hear ) . The House would be surprised to hear what tie costs were in this "tese . He found from a espy of the Bill of costs annexed to ice report of the case , that ^ Ir . Hall ' s costs amounted to £ 155—ihear , bear ;—not leas than £ l « 5 under this ttfanw-ns stale of tie law . or what might be properly

    oll = d nothing Dut robbery—ibeai , bear } . —There w&b toe sims amount of costs , also , in the ease of Tarlar . Tib was % g ^ oj things which arose out of the csncuei ofthiaEiJnister of the gospel and magistrate for Siidfiiesex . Taere was another case , in wMch a man of ttenamtof Goodyear was cited by thiB vicar before « a cotrt , and in which he had to pay between £ 80 *^ 4 'i-o casts . By looking into such cases as these , a little ^ s ta might be got into the working of the Ecclesiasti-*« Court . Among tbeitema of this Bill of costs was a ^^ St ' Jt ' attending and settling hiB viatics '—jlaughler ) JM u : > UifcT one of" paid his vatics "—tgreat langhler ) . Jca "res a cfcsige 5 n these Ch ^ tUsa ceurts , eetaWiabed or l ttie bvsia of iouLsj and this was a charge to pro-, •* * wni ' a health— { no , no } . Gentlemen might Ua ia , bat ifeey would find tbe item stated , and the

    ccans described as being fro -so / ute fotima—( great ~ Siteij , Ha supposed tbat this was something for " * ^ tpaittd soul to take with it in its travels to the n '¦* " * _ " * oria —» tort of viaticum he sopposed—^ ughttr , no Be ) . Yes , he replied ; because be found " ¦¦ at this iraa for the expiation of the soul originally : *** li tad been transferred from the aonl to the ^ WBacb , and Peter had heen robbed to pay Paul , or fctha to pay Theodore—( laughter ) . 2 f obody could tell tteafcto ^ jjiy Of | hPl ^ proceedingB who had not looked into such cases as ttsese . Well , what nas the next

    < t s * fe ? He did not know very well what the word ^ Mt—it waa ' tportnlaQe , " 3 s . 6 d . —( laughter , and < ne « of explain ^ . He reiDy could not throw any ught oa Jhe subject , unless indeed it was sn alma or Oole to the biahop * 8 basket- — ( laughter ) . Tb * Right Bonourabie and Learned Gentleman , however , would l «> bably ttll them what was the benefit of these charges , - *» be waa one of the vicara-general . ¦ He would , no doaU , show s-hat " sportulage "' waa , and whether it * a advantageous to the vicir , or the court , or the niters . He weuM not ask the Bight Hon .

    Gtntlemaa { the Secretary for the Home Department ) the reason of them , few there waa no reason in them ,, » nd be would not insult the Bight Honourablb QentlMnan fey asking him to find a reason— - ( laughttr ) . He must Come now to the judgment , and -hs must say , that be never read ao absurd a judgment in hia life . Ike Judgment ; jww . ^ that Mr . James Hall should be luipeiided or excommunicated from entering tbe parish church for one week of seven days .

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    The judge aald that the words used by the Rev . Theodore Williams were words of contempt , and tbat Mr . Hall spoke under peovocation when he said that Mr . Williams was a disgrace to his doth , and he would therefore order that £ 30 should be dedncted from the costs—( hear , bear );—but even after this deducMon , Mr . Hal )' * costs amounted to £ l $ S—( hear , hear ) . But what was the punishment upon Mr . Hall , besides ths payment of this money ? He was to be shut out fer seven days from the parish church , into which he wonld never enter if he had a spark of spirit—( hear , hear ) . —Now , let them look to the class of offences to which the jurisdiction of these courts extended—blasphemy , heresy , adultery , drunkenness , idolatry , fornication , incontinence , and other evil practices—tloud laughter )—for all of wMch any of you are liable to be cited before any of the ecclesiastical conrts—( laughter )—and even before tbe Bight Hun . and Learned Gentleman himself ; and for any of them you might be called upon to do public

    penance for the good of your soul , and that in any place that the judge might appoint—( loud langhter ) . In case of some of theae offences you would be called upon to do pnblic penance in the church—( laughter ) , —and to recant—( renewed laughter ) . Yes , yon would be obliged to recant as well as perform penance publicly in the parish church—( shouts of laughter ) . This was not an imaginary state of things , for in thB district which he had the honour to represent , a recent case ^—that was not more than two or three years ago—bad occurred , which wap brought before tbe Bishop ' s Court of the diocese of London . He had been informed of the case , and he bad requested some information from one of the pariah iJieers of St John ' s on this subject , and by whom h « had been informed tbat a case of penance bad occurred in that parish , in consequence of one sister havingimputed a want of chastity to another—( laughter ) . He would refer to tbe communication which he bad received on the subject : " Clerkenwell , July , 1848 .

    D £ ab Sis ., —The following scene , a relic of the dark ages , was actually , and to the great scandal of religion , performed in tbe parish church of St . John ' s , Clerkenwell , in the year of our Lord 1 S 40 . Rebecca Cohens , a Jewess , having impnted to Deborah , her Bister , a total want of chastity , process was commenced in the Spiritual Court of the Bishop of London , and after soce , £ 70 was run up in fees , Rebecca was allowed to expiate her offence by going to the church in service hours , and then and there , before tbe churchwardens , overa&ers , and minister , recant , which was done by her repeating after the minister a long rigmarole , after which a certificate of recantation was signed by the churchwardens , and returned to the tfiice of the Bishop of LendoB .

    " Observe , the recantation waa a fraud , because , instead cf ils being done publicly in the church as ordered , tbe parties were let in and out of the vestry at a private door , and hundreds of persons who had heard that this ceremony for the good of Bebecca ' s soul was to take place , were choused out of the entertainment they expected . " I am , dear Sir , yours very faithfully , " T . S . Dnncosobe , Esq ., M . P . " [ The reading of this letter excited continued laughter ] Such were the proceedings , pro salute animm , of Rebecca —{ laughter ) . Well might the parochial authorities and the ecclehi&stical courts be ashamed of such a proceeding ; bnt tbat House ought to be more ashamed if it continued its sanction of courts from which emanated

    sueh an amount of absurdity . What a hardship was it upon the subject that this individual had to puy , £ 70 for this process . Now , with regard to the brawling , what had hsppened to Mr . The-od . Williams within the last few days ? He had been brought before the bench of Middlesex magistrates , at the BJgeware sessions , for inciting to a breach of tbe peace one of hia own parish ioners , ft respectable freeholder . He certainly did not do this in the churchyard , but on tbe public highway , and proceeded to excite a breach of the peace , by telling him that be dare not fight—( hear , bear > The House would recollect the language used by Hall to Williams ; let Vhem now compare it with thai used by Williams to Mr . Smith . It appeared that the vicar hsd cast some imputation on the veracity of the

    plain-I-Tj sod , and complainant replied : " My son ' s word is aa good as your son ' a any day in the week ; " and Mt . Williams then exclaimed ; " Walk out o ! my place , Sir . " Complainant walked out , and defendant followed , and slanmed the gate ; bat immediately opened it again , and coming out to tbe highway , said to complainant : " Tou are a thick-headed feilow . " He then cane forward and aaid , shaking his fist near complainant's fact : " You are a dirty fellow , you are a shabby fellow , you are a coward . " He then followed complainant along the path , and added : " You dare not fight , you make an excuse of your policy—fellow , it is forfeited . " Complainant replied to this : " If I am a coward , I will meet yon on any spot you please , " when defendant interrupted him by spying , menacingly , —

    11 What , what , what ? " And complainant then finished hia sentence— " to discuss the question , Sir . '' Now be ( Mr . Doncombej should like to know bow the Bight Hon . Secretary for the Home Department meant to deal with this Reverend magistrate ( bear , bear ) . Did he intend to let him continue to disgrace the bench of magistrates of Middlesex ( near , hear ) . And this was the man who had cited Hall , and Furlsr , and Goodyear , for using language not one-tenth m strong as xoat wmca ne uaa usetf , but Iut which be w&stned under the Police Act , and bad iifiicttd upon him the full amount of tbe lne . At the conclusion cf the report of the case , it is sUttd that Major Abbs addressed the Reverend defendant , and said tbe majority of the magistrates being satisfied that tbe case ob proved againet

    you , they fint you io the penalty o ! 40 a with lie costs tbear , keaT ) . Id that , in point of f ^ -t there was one law in the police or civil courts , » nd another in the ecclesiastical courts—tbat in tbe one case forty shillings was the hi chest fine that could be ix > fl : cted , while in the other 4185 costs , and seven days banishment fram church woulu be imposed —( hear ) . But were all these thinjB to be allowed to ^ remain in the statute book ? He had auotker very high authority of a right reverend prelate in favour of hi * views . A bill had been introduced into the other House of Parliament by tbe Bishop of Exeter lot the purpose of putting down incontinenty ,

    fornication , and ail those other evil habits daughter ) , proving that these ecclesiastical courts had neglected their duty , and were not adequate to suppress the immorality of tbe age { bear , hear ) . If the state of morality was such as was described in tbe bil ) , be confessed that he had not been awire of it ; but the Bishop might have much better opportunities of ascertaining tbe facta of the case , and of arriving at the truth than himself ; but he confessed tbat be did not believe tbat bo much immorality existed as was described in tbe fifth clanse and in the preamble of the bill . The Honourable Member was proceeding to read an extract from tbe bill , when

    Tke SrEAKEa said , the Honourable Member would be out of order in reading from a bill which bad sot yet come before tbe House . Mr . T . Du ? C 0 M » E—Well , it was certainly notbefoxe the House of Commons , and he hoped it never would be . Suppose , however , tbat the Right Rev . Prelate shonld . go down into his diocese , and staVe to his friends and clergy , that he had found so much immorality in this country that he proposed to introduce a clause into Parliament to this if * ct— ( Gieat laughter , occasioned by the Hon . GentfcmEn's moae of getting over the Speaker ' s objection ) : — "That if any parent , stepfather stepmother , ancle , aunt , guardian , or any who shall procure , promote , aid , abet , conniTe at , or sanction his oi her daughter , step-daughter , niaoe , or ward : oi auy

    husbatd who thail promote , aid , abet , connive at , or sanction bis wife in the commission of fornication or adultery , sfeall be convicted of a misdemeanour ; . "' and upon being convicted should be , as he ( Mr . Duncombe ) supposed , transported—shear , bear ) . What must bejthe state of society in tbis country if the inference from such an eBECtinent waa true—namely , that parents would sell their daughters and husbands their wives , for tbe purposes of fornication and adultery ? If such was the state of society , How much had the ecclesiastical courts attended to their dnty ? Why did not the diocesan court of tbe Bishop of London , as well as the other dioctsan courts , call for more stringent laws , or even exercise the authority which they possessed ? He couid not believe that there was such a state of

    immorality , as nothing ef the kind had occurred . Foi his own part , fee believed that the bishops and their ecclesiastical courts would have quite enough to do if they would confine their jurisdiction to the HiaintainaEce of the discipline of their ; own clergy —( bear , hear , and cheers ) . They could not take up a country newspaper without seeing some paragraph headed aft ^ r this fashion , "AnBlher Clerical Miscreant . " One day thej find a charge brought against a clergyman of having seduced the daughter of one of hia parishioners—another day a charge is brooghtagainst a clergyman of having , frsm a feeliDg of malUe , hamstiung Bome tbfcep belonging to a neighbour—in another tbey would find a charge brought against B Clergyman of shooting some pigs , and tbey migfet meet with some

    other charges of too horrid a nature to mention there-It -would be well , then , if the ecclesiastical conrts would confine tfctm&elves to preserve the good conduct of their own body , and not Interfere with oiher matters—( hear , hear ) . It was xaid tbat tbe present civil conrts were at prevent &o much engaged that they could not take up the business of the . ecclesiastical courts . If this waa the case , it was no i % aaon wby another civil court should xot be instituted ; tut he did not believe that anythlne of tbo kind was necessary . But what did the real property commissioners recommend 7 They recommend tbat tbe jurisdiction in testamentary cases sbould be transferred from these courts to the Court of Chanctry . He could sot see why the Court of Assixs was sot as competent to decide on all these questions , which were bow tuu&lly brought before the ecclesiastical

    courts . He would urge Hod . Mambna to look to a return lately laid before the House , relative to the advocates practising In tbe Provincial Ecclesiastical Court at York . This paper waa * gned by Mr . Egerton Haroourt , the ttriatrar of that court ; and it stated that the only two advocates in that conrtpraetised as counsel at the common law bar , and attending the aasizas and Be * - aiota . But mwk what It proceeded to ttate : " In addition to tbe two advocates names , there are { including the recorder of York ) four other counsel resident at York , but ro application for admission into the ecclesiastical courts of the province baa been made by them , probably in consequence of thir doubts as to the Intention of the Legislature respecting these courts , The admitted advocates of theae courts have tatcluslve "righfc to practise therein , thongh in cases of weight and difficulty counsel and o » the northern circuit are oeeaBloa-

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    ally taken in to give their assistance ; so that , such was the state of the bar of this court , that whenever there was a case of weigkt the parties were obliged to xeaort to counsel at tbe common law bar—4 hear ) . He was satisfied tbat the country would willingly support the House if is should appear necessary to establish another court for the jurisdiction of tbe caws which were now decided on by the ecclesiastical courts—( hear , hear ) . He was convinced that the utmost satisfaction would be manifested if the Government would get xid of the ecclesiastical courts , and transfer their jurisdiction to some tribunals founded on principles of common sense and justice—( near , heat ) . This was not merely his opinion , but it had been expressed by all the highest legal authorities in ths country , from Holt and Hale to tke most learned judges of the present time , one and all of whom denounced

    tbe existence of these conrts as being repugnant to tha liberties of mankind ( hear , hear , hear ) . All tbat he asked was , that the House would act upon the principles urged by tbe eminent authorities to which he had just referred . He confessed that he was not very sanguine as to the result of bis motion , for he knew that the house was ready to support any abuse and corruption that wss sanctioned by the minister of tbe Crown . But this he did believe , thai the first administration which had tbe courage to abolish these courts , and manifested the sense of justice of getting rid | of these abominations , that that administration , under Parliament , would be entitled to tbe gratitude of all succeeding generations ( cheers ) . The Honourable € tentlem » n concluded with moving tbat it be an instruction to tbe committee to abolish all ecclesiastical courts , and to transfer the jurisdiction of thote courts to civil tribunals .

    Mr . Hike , in seconding the motion , observed that it had been recommended , on tbe highest authority , thirteen years ago , that these courts should be swept away . They had been got rid ef at tbat time in Scotland , end tbe whole business of the conslstorial and admiralty courts bad been transferred to the civil tribunals of the country , and not the slightest inconvenience had been experienced in consequence . Dr . Ni « holl , who was very imperfectly heard , said that it appeared to him that the speech of tbe Hon . Member tor Finsbury would have been better addressed to the House when it was called upon to consider the principle of tbe bill on the second reading , instead o ! making this notion on going into committee . The House , by its division on tbe second reading of the bill ,

    entirely disposed of the suggestion of the Hon . Member , for ths bill was net merely to consolidate , but to improve the administration of these courts ; it was therefore quite dear that the principle which tbe House affirmed on the second readiDg , was -involved in this motion . The Hon Member not only proposed to take away a portion of tbo business of these courts , but the effect of his movion would be to sweep away tbe jurisdiction altogether . The Honourable Member , however , towards the close of hiB speech , recommended , over and over again , that those diocesan courts sbould be preserved for the purpose of maintaining the discipline of the clergy , and for that purpose it was obvious that they were qaite necessary . The Court of Arches and the provincial Court at York were also necessary conrts of appeal in all such cases . He considered , however , that these courts were not merely necessary for the clergy , for it was an essential part of the discipline of the church , and it was necessary to tbe maintenance of

    the establishment , that the church should be enabled to exercise authority over persons who , in any way , were connected with its discipline . He did not stand there to defend the character of Mr . Williams , the vicar of Hendon , aa he knew nothing about him ; but from what appeared in the proeecdidga before the Consistory Court of London and before the magistrates , what , after all , did the Hon . Gentleman ' s statement , as to Mr . Williams , amount to . as affecting the character of the ecclesiastical courts ? Tbat one litigiout man might harass anetaer litigious man , and that a large amount of costs might be run up in a very trumpery nutter ; bnt this might equally be the case in a civil as in an ecclesiastical court . As to the instructiens proposed by the Hon . Gentleman , be considered them to have been already disposed of by the House , when , by a Urge majority , it assented to tbe second reading of tee bill on which Iboy were sow about to go into committee , and he hoped tbat as large a majority would now , therefore , reject the Honourable Gentleman ' s moti . n .

    Sir Geor « e Gket , looking to the different recommendations both of the ecclesiastical commission , and the real property commission , proposing tbe abolition of the criminal jurisdiction and the church-rate jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts , and throwing them open to the general legal profession , and seeing that , by the present bill , these courts were not to be reformed , bat reconstructed and perpetuated , would vote for the amendment . Tbe Solicitor ** eneral pleaded on behalf of tbe testamentary and other jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts , and thought that Sir G . Grey , instead ol voting for the abolition of these courts , sbeuld endeavour to amend tbe bill in committee . On a division there appeared—For the amendment ... ... ... 70 Against it ... 115 Majority ... 45 On a return to the gallery we found

    Mr . P . Bo&TUvmK addressing the Home . He complained of the Hon . Member for Finsbury having departed from the understanding which prevailed , in dividing on bis proposition as an amendment on the order of tbe day , he -waa now precluded from takiDg tbe sense , of the Houeb . as he had intended , against going into committee en tbla bill . He also complained , tbat having felt it his duty on a recent occasion to bring forward a sul-jfct verj much akin to this , he had been " counted out , " althongh he bad often stopped " to keep a house" fer the convenience of the Government

    —( a laugh ) . Only last sight he might have " counted out" both tba Secretary of State for the Home Department ( Sir J . Graham ) and tbe Hon . and Learned Member for Bath ( Mr . Roebuck ) , there being no more than from thirty-three to thirty-six members present dnring the whole time they were addressing the HouBe— ( a laugh ) . He therefore thought it too bad that independent members should be prevented from submitting to the House matters which they thought deserving its highest consideration . He would have the Right Hon . Baronet at tbe head of the Government remember ,

    that" it is excellent To have a giant ' s strength ; but it is tyrannous To use it like a giant " Forgetting tbe example of " Merciful Heaven , That rather with its sharp and sulphnrons bolt Splits the unwedgeable and gnarled oak Than the soft myrtle . But man , proud man , Dress'd in a little brief authority , * Playa such fantastic tricks before high Heaven As makes the angels weep . "—( A taugh ) . Mr . G . Kj » ight—Yea have left the " angry spe ' from the quotation —( a laugh ) .

    Mr . Bobthwick—The Hon . Member for Nottinghamshire Bays 1 have omitted the " ape ' from the quotation . I am very sorry for it , for I was not looking to him at tbe time—( much laughter , in which Mr . Gaily Knight joined ) . " I do not mean , « ' said Mr . Borthwick , " the observation at all offensively , "—( renewed laughter ) . The Hon . Member then proceeded to state bis grounds of objection to the measure before the House . He admitted that the ecclesiastical courts required some reform , but not snch as was now proposed . The institutions they were attacking were instinct with tbe genius and spirit of better times than thoEein -which -welived ; they breathed in every one of theix forms ibe acknowledgment on tbe part of the people , that there was a power from which all law ,

    ecclesiastical and civil , was derived , by which alone " Kings reign and princes decree justice . " It was on the principle that from the mouth of the church should proceed ecclesiastical law that these courts were framed . But we lived in altered times , when everything waa being revolutionized in religion , morals , and politics ; and this bill was an attempt to reform the church courts in accordance with the prevailing spirit of conveniencej cheapness , and expediency , irrespective of the principles of truth and justice . The bill as originally proposed was the suggestion of the ecclesiastical Commission . This bill was not at all similar to tbe bill of last year , both being brought in by the saint government . Would any man tell him that there were , in the whole range of chemistry , any two substances more unlike than this bill and the bill of last

    year?—( bear , hear ) . Yet tbey were both the mils of a Conservatlve Government—( hear , hear )—and this was the mode in which they changed their course of proceeding , and introduced a totally asfferent bill , from tbat ol last MBsioD , alter telUng the country , through their miserable organs , that they required no advice on the subject . The bill of the present year preserved some of the diocesan courts , whilst it abolished others . Now , Wby , he would aak , had some of those courts been abolished ana some preserved ? For two very clear and intelligible reasons—first , on account of deficient authority i and secondly , in consequence of tbe absence of all principle in the bill . He should oppose it in every manner which the forma of the House allowed . Tbe Hon . Member then moved that tbe House go into committee this day six months .

    Tbe House divided , and the numbers were—For the original motion 62 Against It 25 Majority -37 The HouBe then went into Committee oa tbe Bill ; and on the first clause ,. . Sir Geobge Gbet moved an amendment , . to effect the object of which he had given notice , that of abolkking the criminal jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts . , . ¦ ... Dr . Nichoil was willing to abolish the whole vexations jurisdiction of the courts , inflicting civil disabilities , and so forth , bnt thought that , for the sake of decorum during divine service , and of church discipline , It waa desirable to retain so much of it as would restrain brawling In churches , and maintain the power Of ecclesiastical admonition . Mt . Jejivis remarked , that disturbance of pnblic worship was an effence punishable by the common law , ' -witbont the vexation and expense of a citation before tbe ecclesiastical courts ; and there was no Bimilar txample , in any other communion of Chris-

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    Wans , of the jndiclal power in chtttah discipline which the Bill still preserved . ^ Sit James Graham replied that the Established Cnorch of Scotland bad a very stringent powe * of chnrcb . dfsciplina in cases of breaches of morality . After some conversation , Dr , NicaohL wished to reserve thla mattetj in order to ascertain haw far the abrogation of jurisdiction in chnrcb discipline wonld affact the interests of the church . Lord John Russell expressed his surprise at this , seeing that a report lay on the taHe of the HoHse , made as far back as 1832 , and signed by tbe EcdeaiasMcal Commissionera , recommending the very abolition ia question .

    Mr . Gladstone said they only knew the present opinion of the beads of the Church , by their sanction given to the present measure in the HoaBeof Lords . Tbe question was a difficult one . No Christian commamon conld exist as such , without the power of repelling onwprthymembers from participating in eacred rites , and the power which the bill proposed to leave with the Church seemed to him a reasonable oaa On a division , the amendment proposed by Sir George Grey was rejected by 62 to 4 « . Sir Gaoi Gbky renewed hia effort to get rid-of the criminal jurisdiction , by proposing an amendment abolishing the power to take ecclesiastical cognftamce / of brawling in churches , " banding over the offence to the exclusive cognizance of the common law . This was urged and resisted by similar argumbnta as before—Mr . , ? v * ° ipQMfoV the idea of carrying an offender out or the ordinary jurisdiction of the law into the cobwebs and absurdities of Doctors' Commons .

    Dr . Nicnott maintained it on the ground th * t public feeling required a higher remedy against the profanation of a place of worship or of deposit for the dead than againBt a squabble on ordinary groond . * ^' j v Buller > Mr- Je «»» . and Mr . Watso » eontended that if the act were criminal it ought to be dealt with like other crimes ; if it were not criminal , it ought not to dealt with at al ) . Mr . Roebuck said , It was a base superstition to say that any one could take care of his soul—( hear , hear , and a laugh )—or of any other person ' s soul . Let & man take care of his own soul , and be was a lucky follow if he could do that . They pretended tbat they conld take care of what they called the soul ' s health . He knew what tbat meant—it meant dipping into tbe jpockets of the people —( hear , hear ) . In one expressive word , it meant " costs . " ( Hear , hear . ) He remembered going to a learned man In the early days of his life , and saying to him " Excommunication ? What

    care I for excommunication V " I know you don't , " waa the reply : « bit I know what you do care for , and I'll whisper the word into your ear—costs ? " It was by means of these courts that the lawyers got larger fees than they could get by common law process . That was the use of the courts—tbe only use of them . " The soul ' s health" meant •• costs" •« taking case of the soul ' s health , " meant ' getting larger costs . " That was tbe long and the short of the matter . If he treated It all as a farce , it was not because he was insensible of the seriousness of the subject A seul was too important a matter for a laugh —( hear , hear ) . In the fourteenth century the Hon . Member

    opposite ( Dr . Nicholl ) might have rendered him s very unhapppy subject by talking about " his soul ' s health ; " but in the present day of enlightenment his soul was under his own jurisdiction , end not , happily , in the power either of the Hon . Member or of his Bishop . : As for Crimea affecting the soul ' s health , why should it be a greater offex . ee to brawl in a churchyard than upon a highway ? Why , at any rate , shoald the offence be tried by a different tribunal 1 The truth was tbat these courts were simply a bad form , devoid of the sanction which the ordinary administration of the law possessed , and devoid also of all those ingredients which gave the law authority in the eyes of the public

    -After a few words from Sir Gbobcb Geey In explanation , Mr . Warbuuton inquired why a superior sanction should be given to the burying grounds of churches than to the burying grounds of meeting-houses ? It seemed to him an absurdity to persist in a special and obnoxious Jaw applying to particular effonces which were punishable by tha common law of the country . The Solicuor-Genebal replied , that there were very serious offences which might be very scandalous to the church , and yet which Would not be amenable to the common law . For instance , sitting with a hat on in a church was clearly a mark of disrespect , offensive to the congregation , and scandalous to tbe church , and yet no one could say that it was a crime punishable at common law . !

    Dr . Bowjuwa—Suppose the case of a Quaker , in tha investigation after truth , entering a church in his anxiety to bear a distinguished divine of the establishment , and declining , from conscientious motives , to sit uncovered , wonld the Learned Solicitor-General bring such an individual uader ths paius and penaliisa of ecclesiastical law ?—( much laughter ) . The SOLlciiOR-GENEEAi . —I shall only say , in reply to that , tbat I think such , an individual ought to keep away altogether—( cheering ) . Colonel SiBTHOR *— " And I shall only say , Sir , that in such a case , if I were churchwarden , and the Hon . Member for Bolton came into the church and sat there with hiB hat on , I should take him by the ears—( ' 0 , O ! ' and a langb ) . Ya » , by tb » ears , and drag him out of the church—ay , and put him in the stocks—( sbeuta of laughter ) . And 1 will add , that if I entered a Dissenting meeting-bouse and Bat there with my hat on , I sbonld consider that I deserved to be treated i& tto sama way . " —( hear , hear ) .

    Mr . C . BulLer—At any rate , the Hon . Member for Bolton would have this consolation—tbat tbe Hon . and Gallant Colonel would clearly be guilty of brawling In the church , and amenable to eccesiaatical censure for the same—( " hear , hear , " and renewed laughter ) . Dr . Bow rim a explained—He was only putting a suppositions case , and promised not to expose himself to tbe Gallant Colonel ' s severe treatment After some further observations , Mr . Ke-EBLCK observed , that there would be a common law jurisdiction in the case which the Solicitor-General had put . Tbe party sitting eovered would be guilty of offending the congregation , and that was a misdemeanour punishable at common law . Mr . Watsoiv repeated bis assertion that if one went into a place of worship wstb the view of designedly offending a congregation , be was guilty of an offunce punishable by common law .

    The ga ) lery was then cleared for a division , but none took place . On our return to the gallery we found Sir R . Feel upon his legs , who Was speaking in a very low tone ; We understood the Right Hon . Baronet to say tbat there were certain offences which could not be defined and brought within the cognizance of common law , and that therefore they should be subjected to tbe jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts Mr . Roebuck was prepared to assert tbat there was no offence cogniziable by the ecclesiastical courts os an iffecce , which was nut a ! ao cognisable by another name in the common law courts of tbe realm . He

    challenged the Right Hon . and Learned Gentleman opposite to point out a single instance of tbat description which , being a crime in the ecclesiastical court , would not likewise come under tbe cogniance cf the common law courts . With regard to what had fallen from tbe Right Hon . Baronet , vbe Mr . Roebuck ) denied the " therefore , " and he equally denied the fact . But he wanted to know why they were to withdraw tho original jurisdiction of the people of England—that to which tbey considered their chief defence—the temporal oivil jurisdiction , when there was not the slightest pretence for doing bo even in tbe Right Hon . Baronet ' s " therefore" or * ' because the offence is undefined t "

    Sir R . Peel said the Hon . and Learned Gentleman seemed particularly pugnacious to-night : he had offered so many challenges tbat , if they had all been taken up , tbe Hon . and Learned Gentleman might bave found himself in a rather disagreeable position—( cheers and laughter ) . Now , he ( Sir R . Peel ) sat in a pi&ce where there was a jurisdiction established for the purpose of maintaining order independent of tbe conitn&n taw : there Mr . Speaker exercised a jurisdiction for the maintenance of order ,, and had the power of punishing those who would not maintain it , and in coses in which be was not at all prepared to say that a court of common law could punish ; and be recollected a case in which a Quaker ( blr . Pease ) , rising to address that House with his hat on , was compelled by the Speaker to remove it It was in bis opinion occasionally quite necessary to exercise a jurisdiction which a court of common law could not —( bear ) .

    Tae Solicitor General said the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the Member for Bath certainly understood one part of the law very well—that of peremptory oballenge —( cheers and a laugh ); and he was so much in ; the habit of catechising Members ol tbat House , tbat be ordinarily assumed a very Magisterial tone . ( Renewed laughter and cheers . ) He ( tke Solicitor General ) , however , sbould not be moved by that Hon . and Learned Gentleman ' s lofty manner , but sbould endeavour as well as he could to give an answer both to him and to his Hon . Friend the Member for Kinsale < Mr . Watson ) . It was not very agreeable for lawyers to contradict each ether in that House . The Hon . and Learned Gentlemen had staked his professional reputation upon tbe proposition which

    he had advanced , and that placed him ( the Solicitor General ) in a very unpleasant position ; because he did not like to stake hia professional reputation iu ppositlon to that of his Honourable Friend—( bear , hear ) . Had it not been , however , for the positive tone which bis Hon . and Learned Friend had assumed , be ( tbe Solicitor General ) should have said that he considered it most unquestionably a principle of law foi a man to offend a congregation by Bitting with bis hat on during the performance of divine worship was not an offence Indictable at common law . He migbi entertain that opinion still , riotwithstanding-what bttd fallen front the Hon . and

    Learned Gentleman the Member for Kinsale , but he might not choose to put it forward in the same manner —( hear , hear ) . With respect to the challenge of the Hon . and Learned Member for Bath to mention any offence cognisable by the ecclesiastical courts which would not , under eome other name , be cognizable by common law , he was able to mention many such cases With respect to brawling itself , without reference to Sunday , the Hon . Gentleman must have known very well that brawling waa in general by offensive ; words used in a church or some sacred place ; bnt itmight occur when no congregation was assembled for tbe purpose of divine worship , and that only became an , eccle-

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    siastical efftjnee by reason of tbe sacredness of tbe place in which it was committed . For words spoken under inch circumstances , no civil or criminal proceeding could be undertaken in a common law court—( hear ) . He thought he hsd disposed of tbe Hon . and Learned Gen-Oeman '/ j challenge—( haar , hear ) . Sir G , © bet briefly replied . He did not at all se < $ what the question of " tbe hat" had M do either with the clause or with bis amendment— ( hear , hear > He was dealing with " brawling' * only , wbicb he proposed to abolish altogether , whilst the Right Hon . Gentleman , proposed to- abolish it jonJy partially . He certainly thought that argument and common sense were in favour of the amendment , but he feared that numbers were on tbe other side—( hear , bear ) . Tbe committee then divided , when there

    appeared—For the amendment ! 61 Against it 109 Majority ... ... 43 Sir G . Gbbv next proposed tbe insertion of some words , abolishing tbe jurisdiction ef the ecclesiastical courts in church-rates . ! Pr . NiCHOLir could not ! consent to tbat abolition while there existed no ether tribunal for tbe cognizance of tbe subject . > The committee again divided : — Against Sir ft Grey ' a motion ... ^> .. 107 For it ,. ; ~ 66 Majertty against it ..,. „ ,... 41

    Mr . € . Bvllxb proposed tbat all testamentary matters should be withdrawn from the ecclesiastical courts . At present , tbe same will was decided on two different principles , that is , on one principle as to real property , and on another as to personal . In truth , it was treated as two documemta . He j would recommend that the whole machinery relating jto probates should be transferred to the courts of cqiiity . On the will of tbe late Mr . Wood , of Gloucester , there had very nearly bees two conflicting decisions ; bn tbe personal property , tbat : tbe will was a forgery—on the real , that the same will waa genuine . Tbe Real Property Commissioners bad given it as their opinion taat the whole subject ought

    to be transferred to thej courts of cemmen law and equity . The ecclesiastical courts hod no peculiar advantages r a limited bar , little conversant with general law ; a monopoly of proctors , serving only to increase fees ; a bench of judges different from those by whom all other cases are decided ; a system of evidence uniting every disadvantage . He was aware that some importance bad been attached to the maintolnance of a body of men devoting themselves to the study of tbe civil law ; but no great practical recourse was had to their labours in the other courts upon questions connected with civil law ; and a bad administration of justice was too heavy a price to-pay for this speculative advantage .

    Dr . Njcholl contended tbat , in order to warrant tbe proposed change , tbe proposer ought to have shown either some great defect in the system existing , or some great advantange ia the system recommended . The present working of the testamentary jurisdictien was satisfactory , and little expensive . A transfer to the temporal courts would not get rid of the possibility of corclfoting decisions ; and no practical evil bad arisen from any Buoh conlict . As to the bar , tbe proctors , and the bench , be could ' only say , that he believed they were satisfactory to the suitors . Mr . Watson drew a picture of the plsnder to which , under the existing system , tbe estate of a deceased man was exposed by successive litigations . There ought to be one tribunal for settling at once the question , whether a will was good or bad .

    Mr . JERVis thought it unreasonable to change a conveuient system , because one will in six or seven hundred was disputed at considerable expense . He hardly thought Mr . Buller could 1 have been serious in his motion . i Mr . Hume was afraid Mr . Jervis was thinking of Chester . In Scotland the people bad been wise enough to transfer this subject to their courts of common law , and no complaint was mode . The bishops bad other business to mind than to meddle with wills . Sir R . INOLIS resisted the transfer . The Court of Chancery had not been famous either for cheapness or for expedition . It was said tbat the Bishops had something else te do ; but jit sbould be remembered that the Bishops' Courts were not administered by the Bishops in person . | Mr . Eltbihstone oppposed the change . He believed the business was very well and very reasonably done under tbe present Constitution .

    Mr . Roebuck and Mr . C Buller said a few words eacb , and the Committee divided—Against Mr . Bailer ' s proposal ... 121 For it ... ... 58 Majority against it 63 It being now past midnight , tbe Chairman ( after a struggle on tbe part of thej Government to sit a little longer , and a division ) reported progress : and tbe other orders of the day were disposed of .

    Monday , IJuwe 3 . Mr . Entwistle took the usual oatbs and bis seat for South Lancashire . The Slumannan Junction ; Railway Bill waa read a third time and passed . \ Tbe Stratford ( Eastern Counties' and Thames Junction ) Railway Bill was read a third time and passed , The Liverpool Dock Bill was read a third time and passed . Mr . Aldah presented a petition signed by 23 . 0 * 0 persons in Leeds praying for the removal of the differential duty on raw sugars . ¦

    Mr . T . DUiNcombe presented a petition signed by from 30 , 000 ts 40 , 000 colliers In Northumberland and Durham , oomplainiug of the grievances under wbicb tbey laboured , and stating that they were quite willing to submit them to arbitration . The Bon . Member stated that be wonld call tbe attention of the House to the subject of the petition when ( the motion of the Hon . Member for South Durham Was before it . He therefore hoped tbat he would now fee allowed to move that the petition be printed with tbe votes . A great number of petitions , both in favour , and against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill were presented .

    Mr . T . Duncombe gave notice , that on reading the order of the day for going into committee of ways and means , or of supply , be would move that an himble address be presented to her Majesty , tbat that she may be graciously pleased to direct that the execution of the sentence pronounced npou Daniel O'Connell and others in tbe Court of Queen ' s Baxicb in Dublin , be suspended till tbe writ of error to tbe House of Lords be deoided . \ Mr . P . Borthwtck gave notice tbat on reading the report of the Ecclesiastical Courts' Bill he would move tbat it be read a second time that day six months .

    Mr . B . Cochrank said , that her Majesty ' s Government had stated that it was their intention to take tbe Poor Law Bill immediately after the Factories'Bill . It now appeared tha Right Hon . ; Baronet intended to proceed with tbe Bank Charter Rill . The second reading of tbe Poor Law Bill had been permitted to pass sub silentio , upon tbe understanding that it would be brought on early . It now appeared &b if it were to be indefinitely postponed . He wished to ask if the Government would fix tbe day when the discussion on tbe Poor Law Bill was to come on 1 ) Sir R . Peel said , that there was nothing mere difficult than to fix the precedence of important measures . Tbe Bank Charter Bill , involving , as it did , tbe monetary interests of the country , was a measure of tbe utmost publio importance . He would , however , on Thursday state the- precedence in which be intended to take tbe pablio business for tbe week .

    Mr . B . Coghrane wished ! to know whether tbe Right Hon . Gentleman would state on Thursday when be would proceed with tbe Bill T SirR . Peel said he would state as nearly as possible when he would bring it en—( a laugt ) . Mr . Roebuck wished to { know when tho Right Hon . Baronet would proceed with the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill ? ( A laugh . ) > Sir R . Peel said that be sbonld first proceed with the Bank Charter Bill . He did net know wken he should proceed with tbe second clause cf the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill—( a laugh ) . Sir W . Barbon wished to i know when the Bight Hob . Baronet would proceed : witb ^ the IriBh Registration Bill ? ( Laughter . ) -

    Sir R . Peel would endeavour hereafter to name such a day as would be convenient . After the auowers he bad given to other ^ questions , tbe Honourable Baronet could not expect ; tbat -he weuld now name a day . Lord J . Russell hoped that as early a day aa cut cumstacoes would permit would he fixed for proceeding with the Dissenters' Chapels Bill and the Scotch Parishes Bill . i Sir R . Peel admitted the importance ef both those measures , and his desire to proceed with them with as little delay as possible ; but , ] seeing the very slight progress made in the committee , on the Ecclesiastical Courts BUI the other evening , he thought it would not be fair to tie down the Government to particular arrangements . ; Lord J . Russell concurred in this observation .

    Mr . T . Dpncombe wished to know whether the accounts which he had teen in ; the papers were correct , in stating that large bodies of troops had been sent to Guernsey and also considerable supplies of military stores ? If the accounts were correct , he wished to feuow whether these armaments were sent in the apprehension of any disturbance in that island ? Sir R . Peel said , tfcat a small body of troops would appear large in such a place as Guernsey , He would suggest to the Hon * Member to'reserve the question till to-m # rrow , as hia Right HonJFrlend the Secretary of State forth * Home Department waB not now in bis place . > '¦ ' "'• ¦ ' ' ¦ ¦¦ -- •'• ¦ ' : Mr ; T . DtJjJCOMBE asked whether the Right < Hqa . Baronet would have any otjeptidn to bbrmoying for copies of the judgment and sentences of the CourMf Queen ' s Bench , DabHn , on Mr . O'Connell and his fellow traversers ? j _ . - . „ Si * R ; Peel suggested to the Hon . Member to allow hia question to stand as a notica for to-morrow .

    ^ T ba House haying reaolwd : itself into a ceBimlttee on tifayfiand means , | ¦ - ., . , . The Chancellor of tbe Exchequer rose to state thejD&ture of the resolutions proposed by theGoxern * ment with respect to the sugar dutiea . Standing on the peat an « -slavety principle , yeti looking to the necessity

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    of anlarging ibe eupply of tsu « ar for the pvople of this country , be thought both could be reconciled , consistently with due regard t » the interests of our sngargrowing colonies , and of those the entire of whose propsrty was invested in them . Sugar , once only a luxury , bad now become all but a necessary of life ; and thero would be no difference of opinion as to tba importance of maintaining euch a snpply as would keep ib at a fair price . In early times , our colonies not only supplied sufficient for all our wants , but also enabled us te export : but when tbe great act of Emancipation gave rise to fears that tbe change from slavery to freedom would cause a diminution in production , Parliament interfered , and by equalising tbe duties on East and West India sugars enlarged tbe field of supply . The

    increase of the population bad rendered this additional supply insufficient ; it was necesswy to Increase facilities for obtaining an increased amaunt of free labour sugar , and our new commercial relations with China rendered it a matter of importance to enlarge our trade with that great country—( hear , hear , )—as well as with other countries , where it was produced by free labour . The question of admitting free labour sugar waa not raised for the first time : but when formerly discussed , peculiar circumstances forbade tbe adoption of the proposition . Java , tbe Manillas , and China are the chief quarters from wbicb a supply is at present expected , though our information with respect to tbe produce of China is very . incomplete . Tbe check to be maintained at tbe Cuatom ' -heuse against the fraudulent

    substitution of slave-grown for free-grown sugar ia to ba the same as that which was effective in tbe case of coffee , namely , certificates of origin , one of which ia to be given by the British censul at the port of shipment . The differential duty of ten shillings to be maintained was not greater than eur colonial interests required . Mr . Wm . Ewart proposed to equalise tbe duty on « $ sugars imported ; that could not be assented to . Again , Mr . Philip MileB bad an amendment to reduce * ha duty on colonial sugar to \ S 3 a ., thereby increasing the dififerential duty . He well knew the difficulties with which the West India interest had to contend ; bnt he thought that the Government proposition would afford them adequate protection , and though they might not at present approve of it , they would

    find that it will ensure their ultimate prosperity . If the price of sugar were to riaa in this country to what it was in 1 HQ , that , however temporarily beneficial , would be really far more injurious to the West Indian colonies than anything tbey bad to fear frem tbe competition of free labour sugar . Then , again , Lord John Russell proposed to equalise the duty on all foreign sugar , whether raised by free or & 3 ava labour . This was tbe old battle ground on which tbe contest bad taken place in 1841 . and decided against him ; and be apprehended that tbe people of this country were not yet prepared to overthrow- what had cost so much blood and treasure to effect , namely , to reverse the emancipation policy , and to abandon our colonies , wbicb could not withstand the competition

    of tbe susar of Cuba and tbe Brazils , finer in quality , cheaply raised , and wbicb would lead to the perpetuation of the slave trade . It was urged that we had treaties , according the privileges of " the most favoured nations , " with countries , under which we would be compelled to admit slave-grown produce , if this measure were passed . The only countries with which we had such treaties were tbe United States , Sweden , Mexico , Buenos Ayres , and some of tbe otbez South American republics . Sweden possessed only < ono sugar-growing colony , and its produce , smell in amount , went direct to the mother country . Tbe United States imported a large quantity of

    sugar for their own consumption from other countries j and the price of sugar was higher at New York than at Liverpool or London . It was said that tbe Americans would lay on a bounty on the importation of sugar of from 113 . to 1 & 3 ., in order to be enabled to send it to this country . Bat in the present state of feeling in the United States , it was not likely that sach a proposition would be adopted by Congress ; and it was not at all probable that tbe Americans , who , whatever were theix faults , were not insensible to their own interests , would withdraw sugar from tbe higher raatkets to their own country , to bend it to this , where it would fetch a lower price . He proposed : —

    1 . Tbat , towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty , tbe several duties now payable en sngar ba further continued for a time te be limited , Bave and except thet from and after tbe 10 th day of November next , there shall be charged on brown , muscovado , or clayed sugar , certified to be the growth of China , Java , or Manilla , or of any other foreign country the sugar of which her Majesty in council shall bave declared to be admissible , as not being the produce of slave labour : tbe cwt , £ 1 Hi ., together with an additional duty of £ 5 par centum on the aforementiened rate . 2 . That , from and after the 10 th day of November next , her Majesty be authorised , by order in council , to give effect to tbe provisions of auy treaty now in force , which binds her Majesty to admit sugar , tbe produce of a foreign country , at the same duties as are imposed on sugar tbe produce of tbe most favoured nation .

    Lord John Russell remarked that the Chancellor at the Exchequer was retreating from tbe ground he once occupied , and was abandoning weapons he formerly wielded with so much effect The riaing price of sugar was now pat forth as the reason for enlarging tbe amount of supply ; but neither tbe present price nor tbe amount of snpply differed very materially from what they Were in 1841 , when the then proposition of tbe late Government was rejected . What be objected to was , tbat they did not make their proposition a straightforward measure , in accordance with the Bound principles of of trade . Tbey were adopting a new principle ia commerce ; making grounds of morality tbe guide of trade ; erecting a Pulpit in the Custom-house ; and turning landing waiters into preacberB of anti-slavery doctrines .

    Commerce wqb best set frea from all such inquisition . Christianity and civil ' action would be sooner ami better diffused by freedom of intercourse ; for , by adopting this new moral principle as the guide of our commerce , we offended every csuntryagainsfc whoJi we declared ; tbe Brails and Spain were thereby tempted to retaliate , and to shut out our manufactures , as we did their produce . We legislated for Java , yet in Java they were told tbat labour was compulsory , and tbe condition of the peasantry was very low indeed . What was the state of our trade with Cuba and Brazils T We sent them the manufactures of Yorkshire and Lancashire ; and in so doing , encouraged slavery as much as if we took their slave-grown produce . From Russia we got tallow and hemp , articles to ua essential , and which we could nob

    well procure elsewhere . Pass this measure , and our merchants will have additional inducements te send Brazilian sugar to Russia , tied in return for it to import Russian tallow and hemp . We would thus enable the Russians to eat the sugar which we considered it an abomination to touch . The pretence of discouraging slavery w&s a flimsy veil for the 90 , 000 tone cf freelabour sugar which was proposed to be admitted would only be withdrawn from the general market of tba world ; and the vacuum be filled up by slave grown produce . It was a matter of astonishment that tbe Government of this great commercial country should deal with such a question in such a way . There were 60 , 000 tons of sugar produced in the United States ; of that quantity 4 » , « 00 wece sent to New York , and our

    merchants , importing cotton , jwould Boon find that tbey could also bring over tbe sugar as cheaply as it wag now carried to the nortkern American ports . Little value need be reposed on certificates of origin—false certificates were not such entire novelties j during the war cur own traders were in the babit of introducing our manufactures into other countries under their shelter . In 1841 , when the change was proposed , it was ur / jed that the West India interest nquired tiuia ; bad they got that time in 1844 ? He was afraid that tbey had not tbe same confidance as the Government oa tbat point . The great falling off of consumption in sugar was a sufficient reason for re-considering these duties ; since the cosntnensewent of the century , the consumption of tea and coffee bad trebled , while that of sugar

    was all but stationary . Do not , for tbe sake of bolstering up the consistency of the members of your Cabinet , act contrary to all commercial principles . But be was opposed , however , to tbe equalization of the duties on all sugars ; tbe great event of emancipation bad altered tbe mere commercial aspect of tbe question , and justified the expediency of a discriminating duty , aa between foreign and colonial . The West Indians would find out that the distinction between freegrown and slave-grown sugar was wholly delusive ; tbe 90 , 000 tons or free-grown would be augmented by tons of smuggled and slave-grown ; and for this we will bave thtown away the good-will of tbe Brus ' ils and other countries . Let them take tbe principle of free traJe as

    their rule , the straight line , aa Lord Grenviila defined it , to which we should approach as closely as we can . The true principle waa not to attempt to regulate by legislation as to where and what people shall buy and aelL Prizes were offered by the Protection Society , for the best essays on tbe benefits of protection ; tbey shonld go a step farther ! and offer a priee for tbe best refutation of the works of Adam Smith- Lord Shelburae , as far back as 1783 , more than sixty years ago , had elc-^ Loently expounded the doctrine of free trade , for which the position , tbe capital , and the industry of England rendered it , as be expressed it , best for us to establish . He was . afraid we bad made but little progress sinca Lord Shelburne ' s time . We sbould now set the

    example ; for , with what face can we lecture other nations , as Lord Aberdeen jbas done the Prussian ; Government , when we abut out the corn and timber of the northern countries of Europe ? By now acting pn . aound principle , we might unite in one all the nations 6 f : the world . The Noble Lord conclttded : by pro ' pbsJng an "§ mendmenfe tbat tbe duty of 34 ? . should admit all foreign sugars , wbetherfree or sUye grown . " Mr . Gladstone denied tfiit the Government bad abandenedtbe ground tiieji ^ i ^> in 1841 , for the ofcjectiQTi , "ffien , taken ; ^^^ of the late 0 Q ^ e 1 rhme& ^ as ^ hastyV and \ preniature . If the question bad been merely one of cOmmJ&rcuLmonopoly , it ; wonld have . " been , . conswdeli * tb ^ . T >^ Io > l $ <<> , Mr . Labotichere had admitted-ti ^ iv oug ht " , notC <<>> eapproached on . 6 'jinmerclal : prJnm ^^ one ^ Eb ? 0 r v Werejg tsnhted 'with erecting ! * & vf ^ M ^ iwM ^^^^ &C Custom Hbnse ; wby , the ^ , M * J ^^ W ^ ^ 5 f taching cruisers to : guard t ^ W ^ gj ^ i ^ l *?*^ te put down tbe slave ^ trafiioJfia «^ v . ^^^ M ^«^ kh&sof war m ^^^^ Mm ^ Mm ^^" they had no detaHed i ^ in jM ^^^ SM 5 ffi ? to , decide JbaVthVaugar ' ^©^ S ^^ g ^ Mr Tc ( Continued in w ) W& & £ ^ J %

    Untitled Article

    ^ JF ^ A > _ . Ig 44 - _ THE NORTHERN STAR ; ; 7

• Citation
  • Northern Star (1837-1852), June 8, 1844, page 7, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse-os.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct1266/page/7/