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HOUSE OF LORDS-Feidat , May 10 . A member trfUIIls received the BoyaJ Assent , among ybicb we ^ e eight railway Bills . Tbe Buke of Kicbxosd , after some , brief remarks , moved , for several returns relative to the importatibn-of foreign-wool . The Eirl of Dathocste , Yice-Presiient o ! the Board o { Trade , said he had no objection to the motion . A brief conversation ensued , and the only remark -worth notice ¦ was mad& by iord JUnnaird , who sold he had been informed that at the commencement of the ses aion certain gentlesnen , -who coDcnrred with the Duke of Richmond , had -waited on Sir Rabert Peel , and had tried to stipulate that neither the Corn Laws cor the Irish Church should be toached , bat Sir Eobert Peel "Would gire no pledge * . The motion was agreed to .
lord Closctskt moved for the appointment ot a Select Committee on Public "Works in Ireland . The motiomrM opposed by the Date of Wellington , and , after « ome remarks from other Noble Lords , -was "sritb .-drawn . The House adjourned at a quarter-past eight . Mokbay , Mat 13 . Lord Brougham , in moving the second leading of bis Bill for the Consolidation of the Criminal XiTWS , stated the object he had in view , -which is to digest and condense the enormous mass of oar criminal statute law , redeem * it to written principles end s distinct code , easily accessible , intelligible , and capable of being tarried into txecution -with facility .
The Lord Chakcelm )* , m expressing tls approbation of the general principles of the biU , _ recommended Lord Brougham to rest satisfied for tht present -with its second reading , letting it lie over till nert session , and me&rrtime the Government -would take the matter up in conjunction with hint , * nd endeavcor to devise the best aeans of obviating'difficulties and removing objections . There were , however , a variety of dormant statetes , the repeal -ot irhich might be advantageously earned pending the consideration of the greater measure . iord DKSius sad lord Cajtpbeix both expressed their approbation -at the course suggested , and Lord Brougham having -expressed his xssent , the Bill was zead a second Use and the House adjourned .
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HOUSE OF COMHOKS-Fkidat , Mat 10 . TACTOHT SULL . Mr . Fi 2 ia > £ K presented a great number of petitions in fsTour of the Ten Hours' BiH . Mr . Fske-asd presented a petition from Hyde , in < &eshire , signed by 964 factory -workers , in favour of the Ten Hours' Bin ; and several eSher petitions to the same efecL Mr . P . AIRS-wokth presented a petition , agreed to at one of the most numerous sad most respectable public meetings ever held in Bolton , in favour of the Ten Hours * BilL
Sir James 6 bahaK presented nine petitions to the House , one signed by tweaty-six manufacturers and merchants of Slandford ; another signed by forty-eight jnfll-ownew-ef the same place ; the third from . Asbtonnnder-Lyne , * gned by fiflyfouT mill-owners , employing 12 , 741 workmen ; the fourth from Kelghfej , in "Yorkshire , signed ~ bj thirty-eight mill-owners , employing 10 , 000 workmen ; the fifth from Oldham ,-signed by thirty-three -mill-owners , employing 6 ; $ O 0 workmen ; the sixth from Stalybridge , « fned by fifteen mill-owners , employing -6 } SO 0 workmen ^ the seventh from Stockport , signed by thirty-six mfll-ownerB , employing 11 , 000 workmen ; the eighth from Warrington , -signed by millowners mpleying 30 . 70 » workmen ; And the ninth from
Beaton , signed i > y eltyea mSl-omea ^ ^ aiplojingS . SOO workmen . These nine petitions , which , with the one he presented on-a former day frem Manchester , made ten , ¦ were signed tjy SZS firms , -employing together 100 ,-800 hands , and psying -wages amounting to ^ £ 50 , 000 a-week , or £ S , 500 , QCB ayear . They all stated that any rednetion in the hours of factory labour , particularly to ten hours a day , would be fatal te the profitable employment of Tnannfactgring capital , and would hare an inevitable tendency to rednce wages to a degree that would be highly detrimental to the Jateresta of the working Classes . Sir J . Q-RHTAffl moved the-order of the day for the third reading of the Factory 1521 .
Mr . Ma-rk Bhtt . ips then presented a petition signed by operatives of Blackbnr * , Staflsy bridge , Oldham , < 3 rc ias we understood ) against the Ten Hours' BilL On the motion of the Honourable Member , it was read at length at the-table , > nt amid ao many murmurs and so much confuaoo on the part of the house , that we apprehend so sisgle sentence of it -was distinctly heard : certainly not one-reached the galkary . Lord HtywicE presented a petition from Dewsbury , ihe prayer of which -was , that for five days in the week women and children should only woxk for iea hours a < d 3 y , and on Satard ^ s for only eigfet hoara . Sir W . James presented a similar petition from Hull . Mr- T . Dcxcombe presented a petition for ehori time izom 6022 inhabitants of Stoeiporr . Hi . P . M . Sixwass presented a petition from certain DnUownera of Benfrewshire , against any limitfiiion of the hours of labour .
On the question being put that the bill be read a third time , Lord Ashley then ease , and adverting to the previous decisions of the Heue on the subject , stated tbat on three distinct &cea * iens the House had declared against" twelve" hours , aad in two instances had declared that the duration of daily labour should not exceed tea hours . Bat the determination of the House had been counteracted by a prodigious exercise cf ministerial influence and official authority . He -disclaimed the charge of calumniating the whole body of manufacturers , amongst vhom were to be found as muni¢ and -worUiy individuals as were presented by any other class . > either was he an enemy of the factory system , nor had he embarked in this azitation
as a mere enthusiast without a due consideration « f every part of the question i bat be had acted on the maxim that that which was morally wrong conld not be politically right There were four leading arguments directed against his proposition , and these resolved themselves into—1 , A diminution of work ; 2 , A redaction of the fixed capital employed ; 2 , A diminution of the amount of wages ; and 4 , A rise in price , trilh all the cosstquent dangera of increased competition . To these points he aJdresssd himself , producing statements and calculations with which be had been entrusted on the snl-ject , both by masters manufacturers and operatives . With regard to the Srtt objection , it had been hitherto argued that a reduction of the hours of labour by
onesixth would involve a reduction to the same amount in the quantity of goods produced . The petition from 2 Iincbfcbier estimated the reduction at ont-sevccth , and not ons-iixth , which was so far in his favour : but vr& 3 lbs cue sa ? Had they any facts to show that the redaction of procnee would be proportionate to the reduction in the hours vf labour 1 The great body o / the evidence he had procured disproved this assertion , for althc = ugh there -would be a reduction in the amount of produce , it would by no means be proportionate to tfc . & reduction of the time . The first statement h& wonld rtfer to was contained in the letter of a gentlenun , who carried on a very large concern , in which he employed 1 200 hands : — " March , 1844 . —Itis a mistaisn notion to suppose that the produce of yarn or
tlolh from mschisery , would be curtaiied in an aritb-. ' pifct 5 ta 5 proj-crtion to the proposed reduction of work- > JEg honrs from twelve to ten , because in very many i iiu ' . ar . ces the workman can produce mnch oi little '> during ihe day , as he feelB disposed , or as bis strength t etables him ; and in my own trade , in which "we em- j P-oy at least 1 , 209 hands , I have proved , beyoDd a ¦ dcnbi . that ¦ wbectver we have reduced the hours for ' ¦ weik ' ng ficm tweivg to ten per day , which is equal to ; oce-s " : x : h , the quantity of woik produced has - oot fallen below ece-Unth or even one-twelftli . "'— \ Another very important testimony was ta be found in a ; VEry important essay , written in 1831 , entitled " An ! Icquiry into the State of the Manufacturing Popula- ; tioa ,- and written , be believed , by the owner of the I
httgest concern in Europe , Sir . Gregg : — "That a re-J dection of the hours of labour would cause a coriespondisg reduction in the quantity produced , we entirely day ; u ^ probable that if factories were to work ten hours instead of twelve , the loss in the quantity pro- > duced would not be 1-6-th , but only about l-12 th , and ( IB mule spinning scarcely so mnch . We know that in j stnne cases , trhen tbe mills only worked four days in ths week , they have often produced five days' quantity , ! ana the men esreed five days * wages . That this would \ be the casei . o a considerable extent every one must be ! aware , &b ull mtn will be able to work much harder i f oi ten hours than they can for twelve" —( cheers ) . Ano- j ther gentleman , who was the proprietor of a large con- j
cem , wrote to him thus : " I am perEaaded by exps- ! r ience , and from actual experiments , that the mUli ocenpier wonld loose very little by euch a regulation ' ( a ttn hours bill ); the workers wouM be so improved in ' = their physical ceniitien , that they wenld do very nearly ¦ a ^ much work in ten-and-a-half as in twelve hours . " , He had been anxious to obtain upon this point the ¦ opinion of the cotton spinners themselves , and be had I therefore submitted two questions to them , to which he \ hid obtained answers from twenty of the principal ! towns . His first question was , •¦ la the reduction in i the produce in the direct propartion of the reduction \ in time—that is , would a reduction of 1-6 th in thoj hocrs of work lesd to a redaction of l-6 th in the I
amount of produce ? " The answer he bad-received from ; twenty prindpal manufacturing towns -was " certainly : not" His next question was , "At how much do you tsSmate the reduction of produce V The Mowers took \ ^ ery view most advantageous to opponents , and was " aotmoxe than l-8 th , " So far he could answer the ] ^ Sameni from practical experience , and that -was the j ** 3 T in which hs met the first objection . The second : argument , u to the reducSon in ihe proportion of- fixed i japUal . employed , he also met by producing estimates ^ ed by manufacturers , denying the alleged remits .: *« thad "point , as to the reduction of the workmen's •* Se * , ws » the cardinal oner bnt all the calculations J ^ w this head were based on the statements of the : ^ W 7 in spector , Mr . Homer , who had eandidJy con- ] ^^* that all hia information was derived exclusively . r ** the master manufacturers . The earings of- the j ** $ * in factories was regulated Dot by time , bnt by ^^« e —5 bewj . They received their wages not by ] «* answer hoars , but by the produce of tbe sixty- '
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nine horns . Areduetion of one-sixth in the time wonld probably produce a fall of one-twelfth in the amount of produce . If the demand should continue , it was dear that the wages would fall only in proportion to tte falling off of the supply . If at the end of the week a workman went to receive his wages , he would receive them according to the quantity of the produce , and not of the hours of work —( hear , hear . ) The operatives werefully prepared to meet such a redaction of wages , and he thought they could show preparations to meet it by countervailing economy * They said that they should enjoy greater health ef body and strength of mind , have more social enjoymp ^ nU , and be able to display more demeatic "virtues . Above all , they pressed the argument that the reduction of -wages would confer two or three
years , and many ¦ said four ot five years additional work , and by this prolonged life they would be enabled to earn more -w- Agea—Ihear , hear ) . On the fourth head , that of the - / he in price , and the consequent danger to our mannfuctures , from the increase in foreign oompe-KtiaD , he entered into minute details , in order to show that sine * 1819 , when we first placed a restriction on the hours of factory labour , our manufactures had increased greatly , exceeding those of France or the United States . The great question was agitated from 1815 to 1819 . Several witnesses of experience and character maintained before committees of Lords and Commons in 1816 , 181 # , and 1819 , the same propositions as those laid down in the master manufacturers' petition of the present year ; that is , " The diminution of prod
acethe rise of price—the rednction of wages . " The houra of labour before restriction ranged between thirteen and sixteen a day . The Secretary to the Associated Millowners , in 1819 , gave the following in a table , which falls short of the exact truth ; but its result was a total of mills , S 25- Of these five worked sixty-six hours a week ; nineteen ditto , sixty-eight to sixty-eight and a half ; thirty-eight ditto , sixty-nine , the present duration—in all sixty-two . Bnt the 263 which remained , worked in a range from seventy to ninety-three hours a-week . The population employ&d in tbe sixty-two mills was 7 , 486 . Bnt the population in tbe 263 mills was 50 , 060 . What had been the result ? In 1819 the a . ct passed , to take effect from January 1 , 1820 , which reduced the hours in all the cotton factories to twelve
actual working hours . It had been most boldly assorted that there would be a diminution of produce ; but how was this confirmed t In tbree years , from 1817 to 181 S inclusive , the cotton wool imported was 451 934 9 * 61 bs . Sow 1 S 20 was the &rst year nnder restriction of labour to twelve from fourteen and fifteen hours a day ; and in three yeara , from 1821 to 1823 inclusive , tho cotton wool imported -was 466 776 , 7511 bs . The estimated weekly consumption in those years , before restriction , was , in 1817 , 2 051 . 4001 DS , ; 1818 , 2 , 132 , 000 lbs . ; and 1819 , 2 , 116 . 800 lb * . In the three years after restriction the weekly consumption was , in 1821 , 2 , 476 , 8 G 01 bs . ; 1822 , 2 , 750 , 10010 s . ; and 1823 , 3 , 025 . OOOIbe . They should observe , too , there was no falling off in aggregate production : of the average
quantity of cotton yarn retained for home consumption , and exported in each year , before restriction , from 1818 to 1820 , both inclusive , the quantity ' retained was 134 42 O , 757 iba ; -whilst in the three years , from 1821 to 1823 , after restriction , the quantity was 140 , 142 . 224 ! bs . The official value of cotton goods in two years , 1818 and 1819 , before restriction , exported from Great Britain was £ 37 . 988 893 . In tbe three years after restriction , from 1821 and 1822 , the official value was £ 46 . 203 208 , The official value of yams for the two years before restriction , in 1818 and 1819 , exported was £ 2 , « 82 , 52 S . In the two years after restriction , 1821 and 1822 , the value was £ 4 . . 450 . The aggregate of goods for five years before and five years aftet restriction , from 1815 to 1819 , b » tb inclusive , tbe
segregate official value of goods exported was £ 9 S 787 , 626 . Prom 1821 to 1 S 25 the aggregate value was £ 124 09 * . 698 . The statement-of yarna would be still more striking . Now , with respect to the second apprehension , which lay in " the consequent advance of prices , and in the advantage to the foreigner , " that argument bad proved no more true as to the past than he belier « d it would be for the future . The declared value of the cotton goods exported in 1816 and 1819 , together , was £ 29 , 432 , 412 before restriction . But the declared value of cotton . goods exported in 1821 and 1823 . together , was only £ 28 , 321 . 226 after restrictios , being as increase of twenty-one and a half per cent in tbe -qaantlty , and a decrease of two and a half per cent , in the prbo . Tho
same > titement holds good in -respect of the yarns exported . Tbe declared value of yarns exported in 1818 and 1819 was £ 4 902 , 088 . The-declared value in 1821 and 1822 was £ 4 . 915 , 307 , being an increase of 43 % per cent , in the quantity , as nearly as possible , at the same cost . The same might be seen on an aggregate of five years . The declared value of goods exported before restriction from 1815 to 1819 , both included , was . £ 75 , 445 94 * . The declared value from 1821 to 2 * 25 , after restriction , was £ 72 M 9 . 1 GS- But let them consider still further the advantage given , as was said , to the foreigner , with respect to two countries from which tte exports were the greatest . The import of cotton wool into France for consumption in 1820 wus 203 Q 3 000 kilogrammes , or 100 kilogrammes to 22 B * 'b .
41547 , 1151 b- Ditto in IS 10 , was 52 942 , 000 kilogrammes , ot about 116 737 , 12-6 lb- -or an increase of 162 per cent . The export of cotton twist and wovea cottons from France is 1820 was l . ill . # V 0 kilogrammes Ditto in 1840 , 4 , 446 , 060 kilogrammes , or an increase of 2 tiSi per cent . The consumption of cotton in America in 1 & 2 S the could not obtain an earlier year ) , was 103 iS 3 balrs . or 33 , 392 , 1931 b . Ditto in 1840 , was 297 , 288 bales , or 110 293 , 848 lb ,, being an increase of 187 par cent . The total value of manufactures exported from America in 1 € 26 . was 1 . 138 , 125 dollars , as itated in Hunt t Herehasfs Magazine , published at New York . The tottJ valoe in 1 M 20 wan 3 549 607 dollars , being sn increase of 212 percent He believed that the statement -was perfectly accurate , as it was taken from Mr .
M-GTpgor ' s tables . The import of cotton wool into Great Britain for conajtcption in 1820 was 152 , 829 633 lbs . The import of cotton wool in 1840 was 5 S > 2 , 488 , 010 lbs ., being an increase of 2 S 8 per cent Tbe total of manufactured eeltons ( twist and goods ) exported foun from Great Britain in 1 & 10 . as by official ralae , -was 3 ^ 22 531 . 079 . The totsl vslae exported in 1840 was £ 73124 . 730 , being an increase per ceDt of 22 i > . Thus , -while foreign countries increased 162 per cent in the first case ( France ) and 187 percent in the second ( America ) on the amounts rerpeetively 44 . 547 , 615 lbs . and 110 293 . 848 lbs , the British trade increased 288 per cent on the amount of 153 millions nearly—( cheers ) . He was charged with being somewhat of a monomaniac in thi « matter : but it bo hapoensd that a considerable
proportion of master manufacturers , some of them aboTe all others most capable of judging , were earnestly , if Dot enthusiastically , in favour of the Ten Hours . The Ten Hours * Bill was supported by a grtat number of master manufacturers . In that House be might name the Honourable Members for Oldham , Salford , A'hton , and Bisckburn— ( hear , heari—and out of the House he would quote only a few—Mr . Kay , of Bury ; Mr . Wa . Walker , of Bury ; perhaps the largest consumer of cotton there ; iir . Homer , of Bnry , a partner in the Srm . cf the late Sir Robert Petl—{ bear , hear )—Mr . Cooper , ef Preston ; Mr . Tysoe , of Salford ; Mr . Ksn-¦ worthy , of Blackburn ; and he spoke not only of the case of the masters , but of the operatives , for he ( Lord Ashley ) had received a letter from him , in which he
stated that he had been an operative , and had worked at a small rate of wages per week ; in fact , that gentleman had gene through all the gradations until he bad become a manufacturer himself . Then there was Mr . Hargreaves , of Accriugtcn , trho felt bo strongly on the subject that he had attended one of the public meetings in favour of the Ttn Hoars' Bill , and bad himself moved a reFointisD on the subject . The ingenious calculations of Mr . Senior , as to the manufacturers' profit being found in the last two hourB of tbe day , were met by statements from manufacturers themselves , who alleged that the two last hours produced more inferior and spoiled work than any other portion of the d&y . Her Majesty ' s Ministers not only rfcfnsed to accept the rtmedy which he had proposed , but they also persisted
in rtfusit . g to give aty remedy of tbeir own ; and the House was placed in a most novel position . They were commanded to rescind a resolution , not because any cew facts had been urged—( bear , bear ) , —or new conditions bad arisen , but because the minister bad declared bis hostility—( bear , hear , hear ) . Nothing had been stated since which had not been stated before , and they were now called npon to surrender their vote , not npon conviction , bat that they might save the GsvernmeutitheeiB ) . —He did nor think tbat a minister had any right to expose his friends to « uch an alternative—< nt > ar , hear ) . He did think the whole question of representative Government was involved in the resistance which would be made to the mioifters —( bear ) . It appeared that such resistance wonld be eventnally
overcome ; but tbe precedent would remain—a precedent , he conceived , of far more valne to liberty and independence lhan all the measures which they had ever been called on to resist on that side of the House —( cheers ) . It was probable ( for they bad made mighty tfferti ) that the ministera -would carry the day ; but for bow long ? If they wiEbed to render tbeir victory a laEting one , they must extinguish tbe sentiments which had given rise tatbe opposition which they had had to encounter . Tbe thing would not rest there ; the sympathy of tbe ccustry was excited , and the question would txtend , as the numbers interested in it increased , and it would strengthen with their strength . The sympathy of tbe country , he repeated , was excited , and so leng as there were voices to complain , and hearts to sympathise , if the present system were maintained , they would have neither honour abroad nor peace at home—they would have neither present coufort nor future prosperity . It not be to
might given him to be successful in the efforts he had made—it might be left to other and better men who would follow him ; but this consolation he should at lwt have , that in spite of much injustice and foul calumBy , they had , at least , been able to light such a csndle in England as , by < 3 h > d ' s blessing , would never be put out—( loud cheers ) . He moved , as an additional clause— " And be it enacted , that frem and after tbe 1 st day of October in the present year , ne young person shall be employed in any factorymore than eleven hours In any one d&y , or more than sixty » fcur hours , in one week ; and that from and after the 1 st day of October , 1847 , no young person shall be employed is any factory more than ten hours in any one day , cr mere than fifty-eight hours in any one week ; and that any person who shall be convicted of employing a jovng person for any longer time than is in and by this dause permitted , shall for every such effence be adjudged te pay a penalty of not less than £ 3 , and sot more than £ io . "
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Sir J . Graham . —I can assure the House that it is with very great pain I rise to take part again in the discussion of this subject , which has been so often debated , and again in opposition to the Noble Lord who has jast sat down . Sir , I shall not be unjust towards the Noble Lord , -whatever others may be ; and I am quite satisfied that tbe cause which be has advocated this evening can never fall into tbe hands of a better advocate —( hear , hear ) . I must say , with perfect submission and perfect frankness , that I leave this case to the decision of tbe House ; but with equal firmness and equal frankness I am bound to Btate , that if tbe decision of the House should be that the proposition of the Noble Lord should prevail , it w'll be my duty to Beek a private station , hoping that the decision of the
House may be conducive to the welfare of the country . Lord Ashley talked lightly of a «• little reduction , " as if that could be " little ¦ ' which would reduce the labour of every operative twelve hours in every weefe , and strike off six weeks in every year from the productive indnstry of the country . He was glad , however , teat the Neble Lord , instead of resting exclusively on moral grounds , as at first , bad now descended to those commercial considerations which were tbe most fitting for tha treatment of the question . Cheapness waa the prime element in successful production ; tbe price in the foreign market must rule tbe borne ; and the necessary consequent increase both in foreign and home manufacturing productive power ( statistics of which he adduced ) , led inevitably to cheaper production and
increased competition . He did not view with any unnecessary alarm foreign competition ; but he read a passage from a recent report of Mr . Horner ' a , in order to shew the activity of our foreign rivals . Lord J . Russell who was now frisndly to the limitation , had , in 1839 , denounced it as inhuman and cruel ; and in 1842 , alluding to what he termed the " theatrical" interviews of the ten hour agitators with members of the Government , had complimented Sit Robert Peel for his wisdom and caution in resisting a proposition which would cut to the roots our commercial prosperity . The Noble Lord had changed , bnt be had not ; remaining firm to bis conviction of the impolicy and danger of the ten hours , and be never gave a vote with more satisfaction than in resisting it .
Lord Ho"wick eaid , he would accept the challenge of tbe Right Hon . Baronet , and state distinctly bis views upon the all-important point of what ihe effect would be upon wages of the amendment of his Noble Friend . Before doing so , however , he must advert to an opinion of the Right Hon . Baronet ' s , which he had beard with surprise . When the subject was last discussed , the Right Hon . Baronet at the bead of the Government said , in what he ( Lord Howick ) thought was ratber a significant manner , that her Majesty's Government held out no threat , alluding , as he ( Lord Howick ) conceived , to a rumour , that , in the event of being defeated , her Mejestj ' s Government would retire from the service of the Crown . But , this evening , the Secretary of State for tbe Home Department told them in the most
distinct language that he would not , as minister of the Crown , consent to this measure being brought into operation . He said be thought that no tyranny could be greater than to exp « ct aminister to remain in power when the House required a course to be taken which be considered fatal to the country . In that simple principle he entirely concurred , but it was equally clear that , if that duty were pushed beyend a certain point , there was really an end to tbe deliberative power of the House . He maintained that the overstraining of the iB .-txim that tbe Government was never to give way on points of this kind was in effect a most dangerous innovation upon the deliberative power of that House . But . to return to the main question , he would observe , that tbe further they { the supporters of the amendment )
went in this debate , the less their opponents were disposed to contest the desireableness of restricting the hours of labour . It rested on them to show that some great and overwhelming inconvenience would arise from making that change ; for none denied tbat it was in itself desirable . Indeed , it was Impossible for them to deny it , inasmuch as their own inspectors , the servants of the Government , had , in papers v ? hlch were laid before the House , distinctly recorded tbat twelve boors was too great an amount of toil to require from women and young persons . More than this ( said tha Noble Lord ] we have our own cemuion sense upon tb « subject—( cries of "Hear , " in which Mr . Roebuck ' s voice was beard as if ironically j . Who coald fall to feel that ten hours' a day in a standing position , and at times with considerable exertion of continuous labour ,
in addition to going to and returning from tho mill at meal-times , was as much work as it was desirable to require from women and young persons ? Then came the question , was it true tbat thote would really be such danger in carrying the restriction to this extent further than her Majesty ' s Government proposed 1 Recollect , tbat passing a law limiting the hows of labour to twelve was practically compelling those people to work twelve honrs ; tor the full time would undoubtedly be exacted from them . — £ < tr . Roebuck ' s voice here became very audible in conversation witb on Hon . Member seated at some distance from him ] — Order" was called , but noi attended to , upon which the Noble Lord requested that tbe Hon . Gentleman who was so intolerant of interruption himself would not interrupt him 4 Lord Howick ) by talking to the Noble Lord behind him .
Mr . Roebuck . —VU talk when I please , and without asking the Noble Lord . I have a right to talk when I please—lorder ) . Lord Howick said he was already aware tbat the Hon . Member had a large notion of what his peculiar rights and privileges were—( a laugh ) ;—but he { Lord Howick ) bad always understood it to be the right of any Member when in possession of the House not to be interrupted -by any other Member—( bear , hearj . Mr . Roebuck—( who rose amid cries ot " Order , " said he rose to order . If he had in the slightest ' degree interrupted the Noble L *> rd , he offered him his Bincere apology . He did not intend to interrupt tb . B Noble Lord .
Lord Howick ¦ wonld at <* cce accept the apology . NotbiDg \ ul the Hon . Member hav ? Dg claimed a right to interrupt wsu ' . d b&ve Induced hiru to speak as he did . He w :. s going to observe tbat tbe question really to be considered was , what would be the effect upon wages and our foreign trade by the amendmeut of his Noble Friend ? He would admit , not as a factor a truth , which he denied , but merely for the sake cf argusnent , that a reduction of ibe br-nrs of labour would cause a proportionate reduction in the amount of wo ; k produced . He denied it was a fact , because it wns obvious that a woman or young person could not do as much work during tbe laBt two hours of tbeir labour as the two first when they came fresh and unwearied to it . But , assuming it otherwise , what ¦ would be the tffeel of
the Noble Lord's amendment on wages ? Ha took it for granted ihat the Right Hon . Baronei opposite would agree with him so far that , if these factories were engaged only in producing goods for tbe home market , wages and profits could not be so much affected aa to fall lower in manufacturing oeupations than in ethers . The anticipated loss of onr foreign tr ? de , it seemed to him , was founded on a gross misconception . It by no means followed when a cargo of goods was sent to a foreign country , that the profit entirely depended on the price which those goods real . Bid . Any practical merchant would tell them that , if a cargo of cotton goods was sent to Rio , it was not the price which determined whether the speculation would be a profitable or a losing one . If he was forced to pay a heavy premium
for a bill of exchange , the consignment might be a losing business ; -whereas , if he paid a less premium , and received only the same price for his goods , the speculation might be a profitable one— ( hear , hear ) . What did this arise from ? From the fact wfeicb , in all their arguments on this subject , they had to a great extent over-looted—that our whole txporting trade -was , in point of fact , a barter of one description of goods for another- In this country we had a great demand for a great number of articles of foreign produce which we either could not produce at all or could not produco so cheaply as foreigners ; our manufacturers were employed in producing goods to pay for what we thus required , and the experience of those merchants enabled thtm to determine what was the most desirable mode of
effecting tbat payment Instead of the Right Hon . Baronet ' s exaggerated apprehension of utter deduction to our export trade and ruin to our manufacturers , all they would have to encounter would be a certain comparatively small diminution in the return we should get from foreign countries for our manufacturing labour —i hear , hear ) . He was perfectly aware this waa a diffident view of the nature of foreign com petition from that which was generally entertained—^ D .-risive cheers from Mr . Roebuck . ) But he was not the less persuaded that it was the just one—( hear , bear ) . Trade was essentially merely the barter of one set of goods for another . The Right Hon . Baronet hnd said tbat Switzerland was able to maintain a very close competition with us , although they all knew that Swilt ' . r-
land could only obtain supplies of tha raw material by Jong land carriage , while her manufactured goods came back in the same manner . The Right Hon . Bart , said Switzerland bad the ad-snntage of great water power ; but great water power was little in comparison ¦ with favourable situation , as might be demonstrated fey the fact , tfeat all the great water power in the Highlands of Scotland had hardly to any extent superseded Manchester , where the situation was more favourable , and the mills were worked by steam . He believed that , after all , industry in SwiiZcriand was not ill rewarded ; because Swiie ^ rlcnd alone , ef European nations , had the wisdom not to add to the disadvantage of natural sitnation by imposing restrictions on the freedom of commerce—( hear , beir ) . The Right Hon . Baronet had put the still stronger caBe of the "United Statea of America , which were driving us out of many neutral
markets . He believed the fact to be so ; bat how was it to be accounted for ? It was notorious to ail the world that the rate of wages in North America was greatly higher tfean in this country ; and the rale of profit was also higher . What advantage had the manufacturers of the United States in return ? Not the price of the raw material ; for , in point of fact , the voyage from New Orleans to the manufacturing districts of America was not greatly less expensive than thsfc to Liverpool . What was it then , tbat , with ; higher -wages and , higher prices , enabled the North American manufacturer successfully to meet us in the Chinese market ? He had seen a trade circular from China the other day which stated the very great importation of North American manufactures into that market , and the reason assigned was this , —that In North Americas very low duty was levied on tea ; that its consumption , therefore , was
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rapidly increasing in North America , and that the American manufacturers produced t&efr goods as the cheapest mode of p&ying for that tea which their counttymen repaired . Tt > e resnlt of his argument was this , that as to foreign competition ruining pnr trade , the apprehens | on was totally visionary : ¦; and the great fall of wages anticipated was equally visionary . All that could happen would be to a certain extent a diminution in the productive power of the country—tbat this burden would be thrown on the whole community , in the slightly increased cost of manufactures required for the home market -The substitution of ten . instead of twelve hours would only be putting as back to where we were a very few years ago ; and such was the continued and
rapid improvement in machinery still , that in two or three years more we should , in all probability , recover the loss we bad . sustained . ( Hear , hear . ) He could not help expressing hia deep regret at the course whioh the Government had taken oa this subject He thought , after the divisions of the other night , it waa their duty , to have acquiesced in that compromise which it waa dear the majority of the House was diEposed to accept He coald not , for one , look without the greatest apprehension at what might be the consequence of their now prevailing on the House to reconsider the decision to which it bad recently come . He believed it was not denied that , whether their reasons were mistaken or not , the great body of the working classes in the manufacturing districts were in favour of
this amendment—( cheers ) . Even the Right Hon . Baronet himself did not contest the point , and , taking this to be the case , knowing the great intelligence of these men , and how well able many of them were to judge o ! their ; own interests aud of the principles involved in this queatlon , he must say tbeir opinion did , with him , carry the very greatest weight . But more than this , he would say , was ! it not dangerous for them by an unusual exercise , at all events , ol Ministerial influence , to induce that House to set aside the decision to which it had already come ?—( cheers ) . When they considered the state of mind of tho working classes in the manufacturing districts , was not < his a step which it was full of haa « d to take ? Already much dissatisfaction existed in the minds of the
labouring clasBes with respect to the constitution of that House ; they complained of the absence from that House of any persons directly representing them and their opinions . There w&s in them a short time ago a disposition , which he feared was not by any means extinct , to take op very wild measures for effecting an alteration fn the constitution of that House ; the House well knew all these things , and yet , knowing them , did they think it a wise or a safe experiment still further to shake the confidence of the working classes in that House—to teach them that that House could be bo lightly induced by Ministerial influence to retract and depart from tbeir own recorded opinionsopinions in which tbe interest of the working classes were bo deeply Involved , —that the House was prepared
also to set the opinion of those working classes at nought , and refused to listen to even the most reasonable compromise , but were determined to maintain without any reduction a law which in fact prescribed a number of hours for labour which no man denied it was unreasonable to require ? He owned that it did appear to him to be a hazardous experiment on tbe temper and ntinds of the population in our manufacturing districts , and even if ho bad on the former occasions voted against the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire , he would have hesitate *! to repeat that vote—he would have shrunk with apprehension from being one of those to induce that House to alter the deciaion it had previously ceme to . And If injurious consequences did result from tbe course which the House were called on to adopt , the exolusive responsibility for these
consequences would rest on Her Majesty ' s Ministers . He , for one , hopsd and trusted that the working classes would be patient They might be certain tbat , although what they desired was postponed , it was virtually carried—( cheers , and a cry of " No . ") Yes , virtually carried ; for you would not find in the wh > le course of oar Parliamentary history that any question in which the great body of tbe people took so deep an interest had so nearly triumphed without its having been ultimately brought to a successful issue —( hear , bear ) . How long the struggle would be protracted , he knew not ; but of what the ultimate issue of it would be , he did not entertain the slightest doubt ; and he could hardly help asking the Government whether they were not themselves in tbeir hearts persuaded that it could only end in one way ; and . If so , then was it wise to allow the struggle to be continued —( cheers ) ?
Mr . Liddell thought that the Government , by not actiDg with their usual prudence and foresight , had exposed thttmsblves to mnch public obloquy . Many Members had voted with Lord Ashley without due n flection on the subject , and had been unwarily committed to a vete , as he had been on the ten hours ; but as he could not believe that the Government could have any other motive than care for the public interest in resisting the limitation to ten bouts , he would now give them his support . Mr . Bebnal said—The Right Hoa Bart . ( SirR Pael ) had , oa a recent occasion , given utterance to sentiments marked by equal good feeling and good taste , on the subject of the necessity of devising Bome measures for securing the moral and physical education of the
people , and above all , of providing them witb tbe nitans of healthful and innocent recreation . Good God ! how were people who worked twelve or fourteen hours a day to have recreation T— ( hear , hear ) . Going to work at half-past six o ' clock in the tnorafng , and not leaving until half-post seven in the evening , where waa their opportunity for the enjoyment of recreation ? And when those who supoorted the ten hours' proposition were charged by direct or indirect insinuation with pandering' to the pauaions of tbe peop ' . e , ware not those enargeablej aho wilb something very like hypocrisy who talked of providing them healthful recreation ? But ' be did not like to retort , or say anything that might savour of injustice in argument Sun ly there were grounds enough on which be might retort charges against the supporters ot tbe
Government measure—( hear , hear ) . Throughout tbe whole of tho diacutsion on this measure there bad been contradictions which : to him were quito pii 2 s iug . On the one hand these factories were asserttd to bo earthly paradises ; on the other they were declared to be receptacles of misery reeking with disease . Now , although he much respected the manufacturers aa a body , and thought them a most valuable clasaof men , yet he was no more disposed fully to credit everything that was said od their side than he was to deny all tfa .-tt was said on the otbev . There were other means , however , of coming to an opinion . Deputations from the operatives of Lancashire ami Yorkshire had come up to state tbeir viewb to members of tbat House . Among others they had called upon him . The very first question he put to them was , whether they were prepared to enur into a consideration of the chance of an abatement of their
WAges , should this measure be adapted ? They said thfy hart considi-rtd tho question . Nyw , he asked those Hon . Gantltsmbn who bad been present at the great meetings in the manufacturing districts whether this chance had been fairly laid before the operatives ?—( hear , hear ) . Had not tha statements of the Hon . Member for Oldham upon this point been commented upon forcibly , but with wary ingenuity —( hear , hear ) , by the R'ght Hon . Baronet , the Home Secretary , misrepresenting the purpose and tenor of the Hon . Gentleman ' s argument ?—( beai . Was it denied that the operatives of the county had heard the case stated to them as to the possible reduction oi wages ? " Sir , " Baid tbe Hon . Gentleman ( who spoke with great energy and emphasis )— " they have I —( hear , hear ) .
; Fur myself I can say , that I put repeated , and searching ! and sifting questions to those who called upon me as ! the committee of the operatives , as to whether the | point bad been considered by them . This measure | was not according' to the doctrines and the dogmas of political economy—( " hear , hear , " and a laugh ) . But whatever of sagacity there may be in the philosophy of Adam Smith , of Ricircio , or of Senior , this I cannot help feeling , that you canrtut deal with men as with chessmen— ( loud cries of «• hear , hear "') . You cannot deal with beings who bavo souls as well as bodies as though they were muto figures on a b&arg— ( hear , bear ) j —hnman beings with passions and feelings , aad habits , cannot be moulded or moved about as the ' pawns' and 'knights' of cbeBs—( bean . You cannot sit down at a
I table and equare down human nature to the rigid I regularity of your abstract theories—( hear ) . It i 8 impossibiie!— ( cbeere ) . And this—forgive nie—this ia the error that pervades all the ideas of those bigotted professors of political economy—( loud cheers ) . Yes ! bigotted is my word ! Fur , though many of yon ( continued the Hon . Member , turning himself round to the knot of Liberal economists who sat behind him )—though many of you are men of bind feelings and humane intentions—upon your theories you are the j most intolerant and unbending set of inen I ever knew of —( cries of V hear , hear , " and laughter ) . The rigour and the harshncsb of your political economy 8 urpaeaes anything I have elsewhere saen— ( hear , hear ) . Now , don't lake to to yourselves personally ( said the Hon . Member , good-hnntouredly ); I know you've good
feelings ; but don't accuse us of entire ignorance ; and don ' t arrogate to yourselves entire omniscience on these questions—( bear ) . Knowledge and wieddta upon this subject , as 6 tt all others , are not monopolised by yourselves—( hear , hear ) .. And 11 egret to find this made too much a party and political question—( hear , bear ) . We should take higher and better ground npon it ^ - ( cheers ) . Let as not have the hateful language of cent —t&e aflodted love ' . ol morality , or the unnecessary assumption of religious feeling—let the question be tried by our common feelings . [ Some Member , we believe Mr . Roebuck , here said—" Common sense J" ] Yea , I was about to add—our common sense ; for does the I Hon . Gentleman imagine he baa au exclusive diploma for common sense ?—( " hear , hear , " and a laugh ) . Is be eo regular u practitioner of that valuable virtue that he allows no others to exercise the attribute ?—
( langhterand "hear ; hear" ) . Will he not permit 61 s opponents to claim some portion of it ?—( hear , hear ) . I repeat , let the question be decided upon common feeling and common aenee— ( cheera ) . And here allow me to edvert to something that fell with truth an 4 force from my Noble Friend , about the tone and temper prevailing among large masses of the manufacturing population . Dp any of as suppose tbat if « e ' give the go-by * to this question , it will go to sleep' ft- ( hear , hear ) . No—( hear ) , I know what will be the consequence . I believe the great portion of the working people of this country are as loyal—as constitutional—an quietly disposed —( hear , hear)—as any set of men —( hear ); but , I feat , there will be a feeling of irritation existing among them on
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the rejection of the humane measure proposed—something has reached my ears upon the subject—and , it things are left in their present position , I know the censequeuces—( a cry of *• <> »"> Who says 'O to that ? Let him controvert m& , and not merely use that contradictory exclamation . Anl now to advert to an argument of the Right Hon . Bironet the Home Sacretary , that in a canton of SwitZ 3 r : and the mannfaeturiog artisans worked legally fourteen , and illegally fifteen or sixteen hours daily . Does he not see that this carries him a little too far in the argument —( hear , hear ) ? for if he so fears Gall and Massachusetts ( or the factories
near Vienna , he mentioned , Ij believe ) , wo had better take off our restrictions and regulations on factory labour altogether—( hear )—and recur to what preceded even the Hobhouae measure . Not that I impeach your consistency ( said the Hon . Member , addressing hiinsulf to the leader of the Opposition)—God knows it ' s enough to defend one ' s own —( laughter ); but , speaking ludicrously on a subject too eeriuus , I fear that somo of us are seduced on the question to p / ay Jim Crow , and to ' turn about ' - ( hear ) . I hear a great deal talked about agricultural labour . Where | do female country labourers work more than ten hours n-day constantly ? ( Hear . ) Your own officers , ! the Assistant Poor Law Commissioners , have reported that in Somersetshire , Wilts , Dorsetshire , Norfolk , Suffolk , and Lincolnshire
women rarely work more than eight hours a-day in winter , or ten in Bummer , except , to ba sure , in harvest , & 3 ., when they werk ( extra houra occasionally only . But who does not know that out-door opeo-atr work is far more salubrious ito the human , especially the female constitution , than factory labour ? ( Hear , hear . ) How often are old ] men seen in factories ? ( Hear . ) Whereas in the fields you may see labourers Working to forty , fifty , er sixty years of age . ( Heat . ) I say forty ; for I asked one of the operatives who saw me hiB age , an > 4 he Baid he iwaa thirty two—* in his prime ; ' and another—fifty—fsaid he waa ' too old . ' ( Hear ) So great i 8 tho stress upon the muscles a . fe one time . [ Here MesBrs . Ward and Watbutton whispered together something about " The old story . " ] 'The old story V Yes , it is so . Bat not the lesa afflicting
is it to those who feel for the Jaufferers of such toil and fatigue . ( Loud cries of hear ; hear . ) Nor waa it the lesa a true , for being an often-told story of suffering and toil . ( Cheera . ) Sj \ the working myriads of this country are not insensible to ! their condition . ( Hear , hear . ) Tbeir situation , with all its suffering , in forced upon their minds . This question of the limitation of labour is one of principle . ( Hear ) It is a -principle which will not be lost sight of—which cannot be got rid of . There has been error in arguing , as if the principle had not been already acknowledged and acted upon . Tbe question is now ( only of degree ; and the measure of my Noble Friend Jean now Dever be abandoned , but must , ultimately , succeed . " ( The Hon . Gentleman spoke moat warmly throughout , and was as warmly cheered . ) ! *¦
Mr . Gally Knight had studied the subject with great anxiety for the welfare ; of the working classes ; and though be had before voted with Lord Ashley in the three former divisions , yet , having bad time to get sober on tbs subject , he had come to the conclusion that the adoption of Lord Ashley ' s proposition would be injurieus to their true interest . He should therefore vote against the amendmsnt . ; Mr . C Bulxer said tbat the case of his Hon . Friend the Member for Nottinghamshire ( Mr . G . Knight ) showed the remarkable facility with which a man c uld forgot recent events ; but there were three events which had not escaped the recollection of his Hon . Friond , namely , the three votes which he had giren in favour of tbe Noble Lord ' s proposition . He ( Mr . G . Bailer ) could not compliment bis Hon . Friend on having brought forward any new faets or new arguments to account fur bis change of sentiments . His Hon . Friend said that the reason why he bad made ] this change in his mind
was that he had time to get sober in—( bear , hear ) . Now , he ( Mr . C . Buller ) must ; nay , that such habitual , continued intoxication , going on through three votea and a week ' s time , he had never beard avowed in that House—( laughter ) . Considering how fully the arguments on his present side of tbe question bad been gone into , and how totally his mind had been shut to them in hiaj former state , his Hon Friend , he ( Mr . C . Buller ) must say , must have been very bad indeed —( great laughter ) . One thing was observable , —that the opponents or tbe Noble Lord bad very mnch lowered their tone . The House heard nothing about principle now ; principle was thrown over , they found ; aud the question was argued as one of degree . The Hon . and Learned Member for Bath ( Mr . Roebuck ) had very honestly , but not very prudently , proposed to teat the House , and brought forward a principle . He attempted to pledge the House to tbe principle that it was unjustifiable .
Mr . Roebuck—I never used tbe word " unjustifiable . " ' VIr . C . Buller resumed by saying , that his Hon . and Learned Friend , he believed , was right ; he had proposed to the House to vote that it is inexpedient to interfere for the adult labourers in factories . His Hon . and Learned Friend found but few to support him on that occasion . The House maintained that it was justifiable to interfere with contracts respecting adult labour in factories , and he would venture to say that they had tbe majority of the master manufacturers with them , for he believed that a great body of tbe master manufacturers yreretot a limitation of labour In order to prevent the majority being obliged , by the cupidity of a few , to work their mills longer than they
would otherwise do . The R'ght Hon . Baronet ( Sir R . Poel ) in his last speech , bad said that tbe only general rule—for he would not call it | a principle—that could be laid down , was that the Legislature might interfere if the inconvenience of interference did not mote than counterbalance the advantage to be gained . That wbjs precisely his ( Mr . C . Buller ' e ) principle , which had been so vehemently attacked by the Right Hon . Baronet ( Sir J . Graham ) , that it was said to be a principle of J « ck Cr . de ; and now , so great was the ptooress of the principles of Cadisui , that they bad made converts of the two Right Hon . Biironets—( a langh ) . In fact , the question was nowi only one of degree . He maintained that the people employed in the factories laboured too long . He , and those who thought with
him , wished to avoid giving what might be considered an exaggerated account of tbe condition of this part of the population . They could not look , however , to tbb condition of the manufivcturicg population withtut feeling greatly how the labour to which they were subjected aflvcted their health , and Ishortened the auratiou Of their lives . Ho Would take jhis second view of tne case . Could any Hon . Memberj deny that labour protracted to the period of twelve hours a day did not greatly interfere , and was inconsistent witb the moral improvement , education , and well-being of the people who were subjected to it 1 He } now came to tbe third feature which justified the interference of the ( ioverument , if they were disposed to promote the suciol condition of the manufacturing population . He referred
to the necessity—the absolute importance , of keeping the two sexes to their own distinct and proper provinces—( cheers ) . Tbe master manufacturers had put forth a statement on this suhjact . What wus that statement with regard to the proportion of men and women employed in the manufacturing districts ? Wtiy , in the large town of Manchester it was stated tbat ot tbe labouring portion of tbe population employed in the factories three-fifths were females and two-fifths were males ; as three to two —( hear , ' hear ) . That waa a great evil , requiring certainly legislative interference . It had been said that a great delusion existed in the minds of the manufacturing population on this subject . It was said that the people were so stupid that they were led by the grossest assertions made upon the
hustings in reference to the subject . ; Toe Hon . Member I for Oldham said that the people said , when aekwi , thai j ttuy were prepared for a reduction of wages consequent npon the passing of this measure . It was his belief tbat it was in the power of the Government to assent to the eleven hours proposition ^ without the slightest danger to the manufacturing population . A great deal bad been enid about pandering to the feelings of the people I and in solemn tones they I had been warned not to do so . They talked of the danger which they who supported this proposition incurred . But , he asked , did not those who opposed it incur any danger ? Waa : it not dangerous to give out to the ! people of this country that they were to expect nothing from our legislation ? Would cot such an announcement inspire in tfco I minds of the people a feeling of disgust and despair ? ! The House could consider deliberately and at length questions relating to the capitalists aud landlords of tbe j country ; but as soon as & practical matter , connected
with tbe employment of the poople er gaged io the I manuafctures waa brought forward—as soon as any ! suggestion was made for the improved education of tho I people—for thoir well-beLig , it was said the question j were beyond the jurisdiction of Parliament . He I trusted tbat tbe House by supporting the proposition of the Noble Lord would prove that Parliament was prepared to consider questions involving the interest , welfare , and happiness of the people of this country . Mr . Roeb&ck , said , it mty be dangerous to tell the people to expect nothing from legislation : it is , however , still more dangerous to tell t , hn people to expeet everything from legislation ; bat it is the most dangerous thing of all for any person , in whom the people have confidence , to tell them that the rate of wages can be regulated by Act of Parliament . The Noble Lord the Member for Sanderland talked of a new era of enlightened , of bold legislation ; but he ( Mr . Roebuck ) would suggest to him to add as the conclusion of the sentence the worda •• rash and needless legislation . "
" Fools tush in- ———;' ( Loud laughter , and ironical cheering . ) " Bat , " continued the Hon ; and Learned Member , addressing himself to the Ministerial benches , '' J will not finish tbe quotation "—( laughter ) . He ( Lord fiowick ) had argued that a rise in prices would be likely to take place , and he had entered into a mysterious and mystified history ot foreign economy . In that matter he ( Mr . B ) would not enter , for be confessed he did not understand the Noble Lord —( a laugh . ) Ha did riot mean to quarrel
witb the Noble Lord , oi to express any disrespect for hia opinions ; for he must say , that usually be paid great regard to the Noble Lord ' s eentimente , and entertained great respect for his character , and fox the character of bis mind . But , on thiB occasion , hercpuld see where the Neble Lord had been for the spwee of all bis knowledge . The Noble Lord did not know it , but he had been to the Moral World of Robert ; Oweni for his discoveries —( a laugh ) . If Uie Nobl « r Lord would I 09 K to that work he would find that he had been but a humble plagiarist of tbat very great maatet tn political and
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¦ os" il science . The Noble Lord had certainly attained thd sort of vague ODd unmeaning mystification whicn distinguished that individual , who fancied he was going to dlBUnguiah himself by introducing a new aad bold syatem of legislation . Until the NoWe Lord put Wfl doctrines of commerce In more intelligible sentences , ne ( Mr . Roebuck ) confessed his inabflity to grapple with them—( a ' laugh ) . He ( Mr . Roebuck ) contended that prices could not rise , because foreign competition—( competition in which labour was obtained at a cheap rate , the labourers being fed at a very low cost , in which a knowledge of machinery and of appliances to render that machinery more effective vyas every day increasing)—being unrestricted , would compel us t « sell at the lowest possible price—at the price to which we were now reduced , and beyond that price we could not no if we hoped to maintain our competition in tha foreign market If there would be no rise in prices , were they prepared to encounter a , fall in profit , on
the bidding of men whose contempt for political eco « nomy was tut the cover for their ignorance of it ? Tha working classes , did not contemplate a reduction in wages , wbicb , when it occurred , would destroy all chance of being able to improve their moral condition . The Ten Hours'Bill would lead to a deterioration of character instead of an improvement of character ; the whole meabura was a nostrum , a mischievous quackery , a liberty to do evil , a poisonous opiate , an aggravation of tbe evils which ;> ffl cted the poor , under preteuce of alleviating their misery . It was not a measure which should be brought before any community—before any reasoning Legislature . It was a measure which did nothing moru than lay the gronnd for future misery and ¦ wrttch&dnesa . Lord Ashley had grossly exaggerated the evils of factory employment ; the adoption of hia proposition would establish a minimum ot wages ; and in the deteriorated condition of a discontented paople , they would learn too la * e how fatal was the interference which had been induced to make oa insufficient
evidence . Mr . Ferrand—The Hon . and Learned Member callu for proofs , and yet he makes a speech to the House consisting wholly of assertions without a porticla of proof . He declared to the House that he waa a great friend to the people , and especially to the working classes . I am bound to Bay I have received information which leaves no doubt on my mind that they btitertain a very indiff .-rent opinion of him . Ttiey have declared tbat they consider theMemberforBiib to beone of their bitterest enemies . They have not f < r , <>< i wi that ho has always shown hiru 3 elf a Btrenuecs •• - i ^ rof the New Poor Law . If I were speaking u > - Mate as an individual member of thia House , I &iiuu , uot take up a moment of your time , after the eloqaeni
speeches which have been uttered in favour of the principle of this measure . He reverted to the formerly discussed aubj&cta ef the removals from the agricultural into the manufacturing districts , and of the establishment of truck shops , to wbich circumstances be attributed much of the misery of the working classes . They heard from tbe opponents of this measure much about the suffaring of agricultural labourers ; but tha Hon . Member for Oidtiam , aud the two Hon . Members for Sheffield , declared in this House that tha manufacturing labourers of Manchester and the neighbourhood were existing on l | d . a-day ; and that the mills in all the large towns were closed , and tbe Hon . Member far Manchester declared that there were many cases " where whole families are compelled to pawn
the clothes which they wear during the day for tbe purpose of . xedeeming tiie bedding on'Which they are to take their nightly repose , and who are able to redeem tbeir clothes in the morning only by replacing their bedding in the hands of the pawnbroker . " Now he should like to hear from the Hon . and Learned Member for Bath if , in the agricultural distriets in Ejgland . he ever found the labourers in such a state of degradation ttnd misery ? If the House will allow me I will ju&t allude to what took piaea in the autumn of 1842 , v- hen the working claseea in tbe manufacturing districts adopted the advice which waa given to them by the Hon . Member for Halifas . They were then told to take that measure into their own hands ; that , if they wanted to obtain their rights , they
were to refuse to work ; they adopted that advice , and what waa tha consequence ? Why , the working classes in the manufacturing districts , left their masters , and went through Yorkshire and Lancashire in masssa ; ( os several days , in fact , the whole of those counties waa in their possession , and it was not till the military were called out and blood waa spilled that the majesty of tbe law was asserted . Some of the most aoure of those poor creatures wero imprisoned and tried , aud when called on for their defence they narrated such tales of heart-rending misery and woe to the c 6 urt , that the Attorney-General , your publ c prosacutor , wept . I am piepared to inform thia House from the working classes that , if this House upon this occa « sion refuse to grant this measure , they will not-cease to
agitate ; and , what is more , those parties who have stack by them in their sgitatioa throughout the country will oi > t cease to join with them in their renewed agitation . Let this House remember how tkU agitation has been produced : It his been produced by Hon . Members like the Hon . Member for Ha'rifux asserting tbat the working classes did not care for the Ten Hours * Bill , anrt the petitions of tke working classes being laid upon that table , year after year , unheeded and onread by Hon . Members of this House . They Qa < i that their petitions have been useless , and , therefore , they are determined to call public attention to their sufferings by agitation . I implore the House to do justice to the working elasses . If the House wished them tt > remain peaceable , justice must be done them . This
House had bean accused of legislating for the rich and not for the poor ; bus now when it has triumphantly asserted that it will legislate upon principles of humanity , and of justice and protection to tke working classes , fancy not that you can by a side-wind to-night , or , by unfair means , debar the working classes of tbeir just rights . Depend upon it , if you refuse this BiH , they will eventually aaopt the advice of the Hen . Member for Halifax—they will continue to agitate , and they will eventually refuse to work . What will be the consequence to yourselves ? You have admitted that it is the trade of tbi 3 country on which tfae prosperity of this country rkp . uds . Let tbe worfciug classes refuse to work tor one wtek , at four difforeni ; periods of tbe year , and what witt be the
result r The working clasaes have , a desire to endure and to sufT . r without complaint ; but you tauy try thvir patience too long , and if you refuse this meiiaUire , the day will come when you will deeply regret it , aad when the working classes will extract it from jour uuwilling hands—( hear , hear ) . Mr . Mu . ntz , who rose amidst pretty general cries of " divide , " said , be would not detain the Inuse long . There was one chcumstance connected wit 1 ! tL . a debate which , aa it appeared to him , had been lost s-ftn of by the ministers , the lawyers , and tbe phiios phera ( a laugh ) , and that waa , whether a vote ot' U .-J . ; house could prevent the evil eo much feared . H b opinion was that it could not , and hia advice to the righc hon . baronet would be to give tke people what they wi ' . ut . ei .
and to take the grace instead of the abusa . It waa quite evident that a strike for wages amongst tbe operatives would have all the iil effect that toe Tn Houra ' Bill could have ; and , as the people had made up their minds to have the ten hours' clause , he would recommend tb « Government to concede it ; otherwiso , the people would strike to obtain it . He had askc ! evory one ho had come upon specifically the question whether they were ready to put up with the abatement of wsges in case tfafi T ? n Hours'Bill was carried ; and , invariably , the answer was that they were prepared to do bo , as they considered the advantages they should derive from time- and convenience more than counterbalanced tha less they should sustain . ( Hear . ; And there was a great deal of truth in that . He thought mnch more
i waa made of the question than it was worth , and that the reduotion of wages would not be bo # rea ? as was 1 represented ; ( Hear ) It waa said this measure would ! affect the export trade . Why that trade was not worth [ having . ( Hear , hear ) Then it was said it weald . produce miBchinf to trade generally . ( Htar , hear ] D'd not the right hon . baronet , on the Bank charter , ; say , that if aoy mischief arosa from his meiiiure he would come down to the house and reeffy it ? And why would he not do tho same with this measure ? ( Hear , hear . ) He gave the right hon . baronet j ^ y of his new ally the hon . and learned nsejabe ? for Bath . ( Laughter . ) It v ? a& quite dear tbat every species of pbUososphy and power and knowledge of commercial affairs was concentrated in that one quarter . ( " Hear ,
hear , " and great laughter . ) If they took advice from tbat hon . and learned gentlemeu , it appeared , from hia own statement , they must be right . \ Continutd laughter . ) But no matter what his abilities might be , ha ( Mr . Muniz ) could not agree with him . He went here and there , ond everywhere , found fault with everybody and evorything ( great laughter ); but it did not appear to him ( Air . Muatzj to prove that be had any reo- 'edy to off- * in this-, case , " The poor creatures , " he « aid , " are to be left to themselves : if you drive thtm to a Ten Houra' Bill , they will all reproach you . " At all events tbey could not reproach the Government . ( Hear , hear . ) The Government had done all they cciad to oppose the measure , and the wisest thing for them to do now was , to go with the noble lord , and , if they did not , they would repent of it ( Laughter . ) They had mnch better give way to a decent manner , than , aa
they will be oblige to do , give way In an indectat manner . Pot himself , he should like to see the Ten Hours * Bill fairly tried . ( Hear , hear , ) He was quite willing totakeb . ' a shore of the responsibility , and fee should therefore support most cordially the motion of the noble lord . After a few words from Mr . Mark Phillips , a motion was made for the adjournment of the debate , which , after some opposition , was agreed to . Sir J . GiUHAM said he now wished the house to go Into committed on the bill pro formalixL oi&et that he inlghl'b ^ ve '' an \ oppoytaat ^ otma |^; 6 er |^^ l ^^ : () aa and laying them Before tho house , inborder ' thathoii . members might have an opportunity of judging of them . If this course v ? as absented to , it ^ buld be the most certain mocfe of Vexpeditvug the discussion oni the bill . Motion' agtejift to .: ' ' The House adjourned at one o ' clock .
Monday , May 13 . The Boucitor-Geneiul took the oaths and hia fleat tot the Borough of Abingdon . Sir T . Fremantle moved that a new writ be issued for the borough of Launceston , to elect a member to Parliament In the room of Sir H . HardiDge , who bad been elected iQoVernor-General of India . — -Ordered . CCbntmvedihoureioMhpafft . J
Untitled Article
Mat 18 , 1844 . THE NORTHERN STAR- 7 _
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), May 18, 1844, page 7, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse-os.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct1264/page/7/
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