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    3 THB NORTHERN STAR. February 13, 1847.

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    ; Smpmai pruanum*

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    lOSDiOHDAT, 8th, Fi».—Tbe bouse sat for ...

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  • Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.

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    3 Thb Northern Star. February 13, 1847.

    3 THB NORTHERN STAR . February 13 , 1847 .

    ; Smpmai Pruanum*

    ; Smpmai pruanum *

    Losdiohdat, 8th, Fi».—Tbe Bouse Sat For ...

    lOSDiOHDAT , 8 th , Fi » . —Tbe bouse sat for a short time , i Chel Chelsea Pensioners Bill was read a second time , and IBuckBuck Wheat Bill passed tbreogh committee , iarl Earl FrrrwuLUit moved for a return of the moneys sanceianced , since the Union , by the Imperial Treasury for llic wlic works in Ireland . After Ifter three speeches from Lord BsouosUX respecting emi | emigration of Irish paupers into Liverpool , aud misireserxesentations of former speeches made fcy hiro , and a iverstversation between the Marquis of Lanidowne . the rl Firl Fitrmlliam , the Marquis ef Westmeatb , and Lord inteajUteagle , tbe return was ordered . ICtw ITtw Earl of Moostcishel , withdrew his motion for a

    mrn euro of registered judgments , 4 c ., in Ireland , on the asrancrance tbat it could not be procured . In tlln the Housz ov CoMHoa * a Urge number of petitions ' . re pre presented by various members praying for a Ten BUts ' jors' Bill . RUIRUNDALE SYSTEM . —In answer te a question by urd Ord Clements , whether he intended to pot an end to the nndsmdale System , or joint tenancy in Ireland , under iiichtiich no less than 1 , 902 , 5 * 7 acres were held , Lor Lord J . Russell said the government intended to iu . nducoduce a bill with respect to tbe relations of landlord ad tad tenant in Ireland , bnt he could not state that it louldould contain any positive prohibition against the holding "lan'landinRundale .

    FINANCIAL STATEMENT . Thi The aoble lord gave notice tbat on next Monday week , ic 2 ie 22 nd inst ., he would make the general financial ateiatement of the year , in committee of ways and means . DESTITUTE PERSONS ( IRELAND ) BILL . On On the motion in going into committee on this bill , Mr Mr . Dasrra O'Coxnsu . said a few words in support ef ae she acts and measures of the government . The Labour latdate Bill , he thought , bad been too generally condemned , ; ar tor though it might havefailed of it * intent in some parts , It hit had worked efficiently in others . He was ready to ;; ive ; ive up every objection waiehhe entertained against outllooioor relief , iu order not to impede the government in jar-tarrying measures to sa » e the people from starving . He iieareared tbe house was not sufficiently aware of tbe horrible Die situation of tbe Iriih population ; bat he could

    atnurture them that 25 per cent , of tbe whole Irish popula . Itioition — 2 , 000 , 000 of human beings—would perish by Itanfamine and disease , unless the Parliament and tbe ipeepeople of Great Britain contributed at once , gene , iroirously , magnificently , aad he would add enormously . It It might be said , "Why don't the Irish relieve themf TtThey had not the means . It was shown by the reports on ' th the table tbat there were four millions of human beings in in a destitute state , " and on the verge of starvation . In th the 47 th year of the union the Irish people ware being anninihilated through the destruction of the potato crop ; tbthey were perishing in shoals ; they were perishing in hi hundreds , in thousands , in millions . They might say th that tha Irish landlords ought to do their duty . Why xo many of them had done tbeir duty ; some of them had Hi not , and he had no wish to shield those who bad been

    gi guilty of neglect . He would give the government unli limited and dictatorial power to apply what sums aud W What mode of relief they deemed necessary , being responai Bible , of course , to tbat house , but still not being fettered fc ; by strictly legal regulations , and baring all necessary p powers to prevent starvation . ( Hear , hear . ) He wished tt to see the bouse confiding to the government—and he did 0 not care from wbieh sidejthe government was taken—tbe a means of rescuing the people from destruction . Mow , he h had not laid one word indicating irritation or anger—he t had not uttered one syllable of reproach—he had bot told t them that the present condition of the people was an un-1 happy consequence of the act of union—be simply im-] plored them not to all- > w thousands of tbe people to ] perish . In the name of Heaven , by all that was sacred ,

    be called upon tbe house far aiiiitanoe . The dead rushed a his sight ; the people were falling day after day iu increasing numbers ; and there was bo remedy but to get food wherever it could be got , and at whatever expense . They knew that the Irish poor eotld do nothing for themselves , that they asald do nothing without the aid of tbe landlords . Let them recollect how maay estates W . re in Chancery , how many were in tha bands of persons who wers not ths owners ; let them remember that Ireland bad no legislative power of her own ; she was in their hands bound down and tied iu a helpless position ; they alone could save ber , ska could not save herself . The boa . aad learned number ' s once powerful voice was so feebleas scarcely to b » beard , and he appeared ia all respects completely broken down in spirit and energy .

    Sir B . Hall wished to make a few remarks in allusion to what bad fallen frsm the faou . and learned gentleman . He had obtaiaed returns from tha boards of guardian * of two of the largest metropolitan parishes , which showed the amount of destitution to be very great in the metropolis . In one of them , tha population being 133 , 455 tbe number of ont-door recipients of parochial relief at present on tbe list was 6 , 817 , in-door 2 , 070 , makiag a total of 3 , 917 . or one-aixteeeth of tbe whole population . Ia the pariah of St . Pancras , tbe population being 130 , 000 , the total number of persons receiving relief was 10 , 431 , or twelve and a half per cent , of the whole population . The number of deaths was also exceedingly high as compared with farmer periods . Now the ban . and learned gentleman sail that England was responsible for what was taking place ia Ireland . He differed from him

    «& that subject . ( Hear . ) Knowing as they did that tbe potato crop bad failed , the Irish landlords were responsible for ths present misery , if it could be shown that they had not made proper provision for feeding the people . ( Hear , hear , ) Suppose that in the principality of Walts the poor were allowed to be in the same state , because he and others refuted to pay their rates , or suppose tbat whea a gentleman in Wales went out by his park gates hs saw cottagers living in hovels which were not fit to be the dwelling of a dog , would not tbe finger of scorn be held up against them , and would they not be objects of execration with everybody in this country I ( Hear , bear . ) Whilst there were resources iu Ireland the landlords were bound U apply them for the relief of distress , aad if those resources were not sufficient tbe English people would be ready to afford aid . What ,

    however , were the facts ? The workbonse of Baliina was capable ef holding 1200 parsons : on the 4 th of January only 809 were located there . Balliarobe afforded a similar instance . There no rates bad beta struck since 1841 or 1844 , with the exception of one in 1816 , amounting to £ 3 , 000 , of wbieh only £ 1 , 100 had been collected;—tbe collection was not , ia fact , proceeded with , though it was admitted that there were persons capable of paying the rates , but who refused to do so . ( Hear , bear . ) Look again at tbe union of Castlebar . There were persons of large property and great influence in that district who refused to pay . He thought such persons ought to be bell up to the execration of tbe country . It had been stated tbat even Lord Lucas was one of those who bad not paid bis rates . The property in the neighbourhood of Skibbereen was estimated at £ 50 , 000 a year . Sir Randolph Routh gave the names of the owners . Lerd Carbery h * d £ 15 , 000 a year ; Sir William Beecber bad a

    large estate ; yet tha rates were not paid , and Sir Randolph put a question which he should like to beat answered by Irish members— "With such property as t 'is , with such resources as these , ought such destitution to exist ? " It was of no use , with such facts before their eyes , to eome to that bouse and tell them tbat the lead , lords of Ireland were not reprehensible . At a meeting b id at Old Palace-yard , where Lord Monteagle presided , tbat noble lord moved a resolution condemning the clause in tbe Irish Destitute Relief BUI which gave a discretionary power to afford temporary relief at the expense of the union . He should like to know at whose expense relief should be given f They should pass a law com . peliing the Irish landlords to do their duty . The land , lords did not appear , ia many respects , to approve of a permaneat Poor-law Bill Tbat was what the house witbed them to approve of , and what it must make them accept .

    Mr . MojrccTO * Musts * defended the Irish Iaidlord * Even if they bad not ail done tbeir duty , this was sot tbe time for such speeches . It might be that there were » uions in Ireland ia which the rates were net paid ; lot the boo . member should hive rethtr contrasted these exceptional rases with the cases in which tbe rates bad been paid , than have cited them as the prevailing rule . ( Hear . ) It was not fair to make that house aad tbe c lUntry believe tbat in this extremity of Ireland ' s misery thi exception was the rule . And this feeling it was which made him take strong objections te the speeches

    delivered in tbe bouse during the present session by bis hon , friend tbe member for Bath , Those speecbessrright contain truisms ; but be ( Mr . Miloes ) could not bnt express his opinion that It was not decent —( Hear , hear ) —that it was not decent at that moment to objurgate the landlords of Ireland as his bon , friend bad objurgated them . ( Much cheering from Irish members . ) Great misery and destitution always find sympathy in tbe hearts of honourable men —( Hear , hear)—and be ( Mr . Milues ) was sure that in stating what he bad done be was only expressing tbe feelings of tbe benevolent and honourable people of this country . ( Cheering . )

    Mr . PoOLxrr Scaon and Lord Doses * supported the views of Sir B . Hall . His Lordship said be had been requested by tbe first magistrate of Bath to corroborate tbe statements of his bon . colleague . His constituents were in great distress , were beading under the weight of local and general taxation , and were quite opposed to the motion of undertaking burdens that should rest exclusively on the shoulders of Irish proprietor * . Major MlcxalUBA , who laboured under evident excitement , rose aad said : —I take the first opportunity I can to state tbat every sentence in Captain Wynn ' s letter is a malicious falsehood . Tbe honourable and gallant member ' s brief and pithy speech caused loud * laughter .

    Mr . B . 'OnottOi said tbat be regretted none of tbe Irish landlords in that bouse had risen to reply to the , charges of tbe bon . member for Marylebone . When that hon . member lectured thsm in tbat peculiar strain , only made use of in the columns of certain daily paperswhen be made use of tbe sort of objurgations which were the ' stock in trade of orators oa Irish matters as the member for the Xeigbley union —( a laugh)—he meant for Knaresboroog h - ( renewed laughter)—when he talked articles learnt by heart from tbe columns of The Timts oi tbat day three weeks—and eame down there with maagled documents and mutilated information , he ( Mr . Osborne ) must say , tbat it did surprise him to find that no Irish landlord was to be seen to rise from his seat to answer this wild calumnies , and , state what wae doing for the poor by those who were mo » t interested in their welfare . ( Cheering . ) He was far from defending the conduct of all the Irish landlords ; but this he must say , that neglect was tbe exctptic-a , and aot tbe role , and that If their conduct was blanuable , it was conduct

    Losdiohdat, 8th, Fi».—Tbe Bouse Sat For ...

    which the British legislation bad to answer for , for they bad legislated for Ireland as they would legislate for an English colony—( hear , hear)—and if they had legislated in a different spirit , they would not have had the state of things in Ireland which existed now . He saw the bon . member for Paisley ( Mr . Hastie ) laugh . Tha hon . member was always attacking the Irish landlords in private , bat he hoped be would soon see reason to change his views , Mr . flasxiB hoped bo should never say in private what he was afraid to say in public , nor bad he stated any thing in private or in public which was not made univer . sally well known by the official statements laid before tbathonse . Tbe Irish landlords bad grossly neglected their duty . ( Hear , hear . ) That was a fact fully confirmed by the evidence before them ; be had stated it in private

    and no doubt in the hearing of the hon . member who referred to his remark , and he thanked tbe hon . member for giving bim an opportunity of repeating his opinion before that house and the country . ( Cheers . ) When the Irish landlords saw the famine coming , what did they do ! Nothing but sit down and howl for English money . ( Loud laughter and cheering . ) What ought they to have done » It wag tbefr duty to bare ascertained the quantity of grain in every parish—to have made returns to the government and to tbat house , and to have taken every means in tbeir power to supply the deficiency . ( Hear . ) That was the difference between what they hnd done , and what tbey ought to have done , aud certainly he ( Mr . Hastie ) would not acquit them of blame . Mr . Hastie ' s plain spoken speech brought up Sir D . Norreys and Sir H . W . Barron in defence . The latter

    said , There was a systematic attempt going on to put down the Irish landlord * , an attempt which he was disposed to regard as a low , cunning manoeuvre of the London capitalists , in order to reduce the market value of Irish land , and thus secure it ata cheap rate , ( laugh . ) The attempt was aided by certain portions of the press here , representing , what was culled , the money interest . Lord J . Russell came to tbe rescue of the monied capitalists : —Tbe bon . baronet had thought proper to make a most unfounded attack upon numbers of a constituency very dear to him , the constituency of the City of London . The hon . baronet charged them with a low and cunning conspiracy to get hold of Irish estates ata cheap rate . He begged to remind the honourable baronet of a circumstance : —About a month ago , eeveral gentlemen , intimately connected with the money interests of London , bat having no connexion with Ireland , having no property there , and , in all probability desiring to have

    none—( a laugh)—met for the purpose of raising a subscription for Ireland ; at which meeting several of those gentlemen contributed £ 1 , 000 each towards the object . ( Hear , hear . ) Not content with doing this , and occupied as they w * re all the morning till four o ' clock , they formed a committee and met every day at four o ' clock for the purpose of further forwarding their generous purpose , by receiving subscription * , conducting correspondence , and taking measures to transmit tbe funds raised iu tbe manner calculated to be most useful to tho Irish people . ( Hear , hear . ) Ae to the Imperial Exchequer , he would beg to remind the hon . baronet tbat within the last week not less than a million sterling had been sent orer to relieve the immediate distresses of Ireland , He believed , iua won ) , hemhrht say that if , unhappily , on the one hand , the calamity under which Ireland was suffering was unprecedented , thesymp-. ithy , the cordial and practical sympathy extended te her by England was equally unprecedented . ( Hear , hear . )

    Mr . S . CaawFoaD would not for an instant tbink of asking aid from England , if he did not believe tbat Ireland could and wou ld rep-ay the advances made to her . For bis own part he should be ready to have his property taxed to tbe last farthing fer this purpose , and be considered that the property of every landlord in Ireland ought to be strictly taxed fur the same object , and rigourous measures adopted , where necessary , for enforcing the prompt payment of the amount assessed upon each landlord . ( Hear , hear . ) After some further discussion , the house at last got into committee . Various amen'lnie . its were proposed by the Irish members , and negatived . On clause 10 , which provides W the payment of loans , anotber exciting discussion is to the conduct of the Irish landlord * took place .

    Mr , Roebuck demanded of the Chancellor of tbe Exchequer to state explicitly what would be the gross amount « 'f the sums necessary to carry into effect the Ministerial measures ; an . ! whether the requisite amount would be obtained by an increased income-tax or by a loan ! He would not w ; . it for the budget to bear that which ought to have been told long ego . He bad been astonished—be might say astounded at the patience of the bon .-member for Montrose . ( Lmgbter . ) That hon . member had put this question in so mild a form that the Chancellor of tbe Exchequer bud •¦ aid tbat he would tell him some day or other . He ( Mr . Roebuck ) wished that he would show some of the vigour of his earlier day * , and force the Chancellor of thu Exchequer to tell that

    which be was bound as a niemuei of thf government to do . He ( Mr . Roebuck ) wt ' sbed that the right lion , gentleman should not merely enjoy tin-honour of being Chancellor of tbe Exchequer , but that he sheuM bo bound by some of tbe obligations of the office . Let him meet the question and the difficulty fairiy , and as was bis duty—let him say these are tbe difficulties and these the means by which it is proposed to meet them and to raise the money . It was for the house then , if they did not agree with him , to say so ; but it was not fair to ro on with tbe petty details of this bill till tbat great question was settled . No one had been able to get at what tbe expense of this measure would be to England . Ho demanded an answer totals qy . es . tioa .

    The CHiNCELLOS of the Excheqceb objected to tbe offensive tone and manner in which Mr . Roebuck que ; , tioned bim , and refused to anticipate the general financial statement , promised for Monday week , the 22 nd inst . However , he bad no objection in saying that up to tbe end of January £ 2 , 000 , 000 sterling had been expended . But under the Bill before tbe house , the Government would be restricted to £ 300 , 000 ; and , for any tuture sums they would require , tbey would come to tbe house and ask for it ia committee of supply . Mr . Eveltn Dehison uished to be distinctly informed if tbe government meant positively to support substantially tbeir own Poor Law ( Ireland ) Bill ? Sir O . Gasv thought the question a most extraordinary one . The Bill was brought , iu by the Premier , tbe Irish Secretary , and himself , aud he bad not before beard even a surmise tbat they did not intend effectually to carry their own Bill .

    Lord John IUmmess entreated the Irish representatives to mark well that the Emg'ish members on his aide of the bouse did not acquiesce in the sentiments expressed by Mr . Roebuck and his friends . To mortgage the property of Ireland would be , in his Lord John Manners , judgment , of little use to the poor people of Ireland . The English Members would not allow the people of Ireland to starve , became tbe Irish landlords might have neglected their duties . Tbey would feed tbe famishing people first , and then devise means of making the landlords pay for the support of their poor . The Bill ultimately passed through committee . BREWING FROM SUGAR BILL . —On tbo motion for going into committee on the bill .

    Mr . W . Mais expressed bis regret tbat the Governmeat bad not acceded to Lord G . Bentinck ' s suggestion , and made this and the Distilling from Sugar Bill tern , porary measures . The honourable meaner pointed ont to the house , from the result of experiments , what would be the bearing of these measures on tbebome agriculture and tbe colonial sugars . They were proceeding quite in tbe dark . Mr . M . Milhei , amidst much laughter , asked the Government to allow fn * h liquorice juice to be used in breweries and distilleries . He hopsd no financial objections would be > vged against the proposal . The Cbancellok ot the ExcHEQ . osa considered that liquorice tasted so welt in Poatetract cakes and liquorice stick , tbat it would be a pity to divert liquorice from it * purposes . He did not think the financial objections to tbe proposal would be very strong . After remarks from Mr . James , Mr . Fiacb , and Mr . Newdegete , the house went into committee on tbe Bill , aad all tbe clauses were agreed to .

    The Distilling from Sugar Bill also passed through committee , Tbe Poor Relief ( Ireland ) Bill was postponed . Tbe Customs' Duties Bill was read a seeoud time , and the bouse adjourned at half past 12 o ' clock . HOUSE OP LORDS—Tcasoav , Pea . 9 . COLLEGIATE CHURCH AT MANCHESTER—Lord Starlet presented a petition from the churchwardens of Manchester , complaining that whereas the rectorial revenue amounted to above £ 5000 , which was received by the Dean and Fellows of tbe Collegiate Church at Man-Chester , that body claimed to be exempt , on payment of a trifling fine , from residence and from tbe cure of souls . Thus , practically , this parish , with a population of 100 , 000 , was left destitute of spiritual assistance . In strict construction of the ancient charters , the claim was perhaps sustainable , but it was astonishing that the Dean and Chapter ceald reconcile it to tbeir consciences to receive from the rectorial fund * of Manchester nearly £ 6000 a year , and leave so large a population without spiritual advice aud instruction .

    Lord BaouetUH tbougbt tbe only remedy tbat could remove this abuse would be a legislative enactment . The Marquis of LaHSDOWSa read a letter from the Dean , stating that the representations made in tbe petition from the churchwardens were inaccurate , and bore testimony to the xeal and assiduity of tbe Dean of Manchester in the cause of education . The Lord CnaxccLLoa said no one could entertain a doubt but tbat the funds of the parish sbould be applied to the spiritual wants of the people , but it was extremely difficult to knew bow to deal with property which belonged to a corporation for more than four hundred

    years . This , however , was quite clear from tbe grant of incorporation , namely , that the Dean and Chapter were subject to certain pecuniary payments , wbicb , when paid , relieved them from tbe obligation of perpetual residence . If tbe Dean and Chapter of Manchester conformed to the tetms of the charter , respecting which he would express no opinion , they were as much entitled to the tithes as any one of their Lordships was to his estates . If the petiting appealed to tbe wants of the parish ef Manchester , tbat was another question , and it might be proper that an act of Parliament should be obtained to remedy the grievance complained of . After a few remarks from from Lord Campbell ,

    Lord Starlet denied tbat the letter of the De-n bad controverted any material statement in the petition . He thought tbe matter called for the special interfereace of tbe Legislature . After some forthir diieui'ion the matter dropped .

    Losdiohdat, 8th, Fi».—Tbe Bouse Sat For ...

    Ho other business of public importance occurred , and their lordships adjourned at a few minutes before seven o ' clock . HOUSE OP COMMONS—Toesdat , Fib . 9 . Previous to the commencement of public business , a long discussion took place on the railway canal proposed to run through tbe Regent ' s Park , In tbe course of the debate , Mr , W . Wilhshs observed , the Regent ' s Park was one of the principal lungs of the metropolis ; but if they made a railway on tbe banks of the canal , the most fa * vourite parts would be deserted . That part of the park was now frequented by carriages , and ladies ana gentlemen on horseback , but tbey could not then frequent it , owing to the danger to which their lives would be exposed in consequence of the horses taking fri ght at the noise of the engines .

    Sir C . Napier said ; Supposing that this lino of rail , way communication should be made , it would materially injure forty villas , and . when an engine went by with a team of carriages , snorting , and snoring , and whiwiog , what a pretty accompaniment it would be to * a lady playing on a pianoforte in one of those houses . ( Laughter . ) Ultimately tbe bill was postponed in order to enable Lord Morpeth to ascertain certain facts connected with it . RATE PAYING CLAUSES OF TIIE REFORM ACT . Mr . T . Duncombe gave notice that he should postpone , from the 18 th to that day fortnight , his motion as to tbe rate paying clauses of the Reform Act , IMPORTATION OF SALT INTO INDIA—Sir Joun Hobhouse , in reply to a question , stated tbat a despatch had been forwarded on Monday last to tbe Governor Generalof India , ordering the resolutions in force in India respecting the importation of salt to be cancelled .

    NAVIGATION LAWS . —Mr . Ricabdo moved for a select committee to inquire into tbe operation of tbe Navigation Laws . The honourable member said tbat a committee bad been appointed in 1814 by the Conservative party ; that committee not having made their report , although tbey printed evidence , was re-appointed in 1815 . Tbey did act finish their inquiry in that year , but asked to be reappointed in 1816 . Tbey were never re-appointed since , and consequently no report had ever been made . As , therefore , tbe Conservative party had admitted that there was a doubt of tbe efficacy of these Navigation Laws , be did not think tbey could refuse bis motion , which was intended to bring the inquiry to a conclusion . The honourable member proceeded to argue that these laws were

    injurious to the manufactural , the commercial , and the colonial interests of this country . Tbey upset tbe natural law of trade , and they acted as a direct encouragement to foreign manufactures over our own . They were only designed as a protection to British shipawers , but .-tbey were no protection at all , unless tbey raised tbe price of freights , and if tbey raised the freights 10 s . a ton , they would tax the country to the amount of £ 1 , 273 , 000 . This , however , he did not believe . He denied that the Navigation Laws encouraged the navy , that they were a real protection to the shipowners , or toBritibh seamen , or to British carpenters . The Americans made better and cheaper ships , and he thought it was a fair question to ask , if it would not be wiser to buy American ships in . stead of building them .

    Mr . M . Gibson , on the part of tbe Government , recommended the bouse to agree to tbe motion . The resolution only asked for an inquiry , and would not commit any member to the opinion entertained by Mr . Ricardo . Tbe house would be continuing a train of useful inquiry , commenced in 1814 , and pursued in 1815 , by appointing this committee . Mr . Liosell could not agree to theproposed committee , because be did not bslieve tbat it was intended to follow up tbe inquiry of the commUtee of 1811-5 . The object that committee had in view was tbe improvement of the Navigation Laws , the evident design of the proposed com . mittee wan toAbonsh them . He hoped tbe house had net as yet Cume ti the point of considering tbe British ship , owner * , British commerce , and tbe British marine as undeserving of protection . How far were tbe bouse pre . pared to go in exposing the industry of this country to foreign competition t He w ould oppose the motion .

    Mr Hone , to tbe que * tio » , " Where were tbey to stop in their Free Trade course , " would answer , nowhere . He would not disguise bis opinion , which was , that the Navigation Laws should be abolished . He seconded the motion . A lengthened debate , which occupied nearly tbe whole of the sitting , ensued . Lord S andok thought it quite unjustifiable on the part of the government to throw en an honourable member uotr « yrescutiug any great commwcAftl constituency an inquiry such as this , without guidance , control , or responsibility . It was the business of the government to make a distinct statement on so important a question , aud to conduct tbe inquiry if tbey thought it desirable to institute , one .

    Mr . LiBODCHUE hoped he should never see the time when the government of this country would take upon itself to say to tbe motion of any independent member , " this is not a subject fit to be conducted by any independent member of Parliament . " Subjects of the greatest interest had been investigated at the instance of Individual members . Neither tbe government nor any hon , member would be committed to any opinion upon the general question ef tbe Navigation Lnwi , by contenting to the select committee asked for ; all they would be com . mitted to was , that in consequence of late commercial changes it was not possible to deny that this question ought to undergo the test of inquiry .

    Lord G . Behtiucx . maintaiasd that it was not permitted to a government to allow a question of such magnitude to be sent up to a select committee , particularly after the declaratioas from the proposer aud the seconder of the motion that the shipping interests and the commercial nary of England ougbt to be compared to pedlars and pack-horses , and tbe trade and shipping of England te be as free as free trade in shoes . When tbat was the spirit of the proposers of this eomnlttee , it was clear that it was not at all similar in its interest to the committee of 1811 . In fact , it was designed to drive du » n the wages of the British shipwrights to half the present amount , and he would resist tbe inquiry .

    Tbe motion was supported by Messrs . Bright , Mitchell Hutt , Sir Walter James . aad other members , and opposed by Aldermou Thompson , Mr . Hudson , Captain Harris , and Mr . Disraeli , who said the Protectionist party were not going to vote either in favour of er against tbe Navigation Laws , but simply againstenquiry : ( Laughter . ) Sia Robs & t Peel avowed bis intention of supporting the proposition . He saw no reason why an opportunity should not be given for ascertaining whether the Navigation Laws were for tbe benefit of British shipping and necessary for securing our maritime . Lord Joun Russell said that if the Government had proposed an alteration in this most important law , they would have been met by tbe objection tbat tbey bad proposed it without inquiry . On behalf of tbo shipping interest , a * well as of those who wished for an alteration of tbe Navigation Laws , be was glad the proposition was made , and be gave it bis cordial support . The House

    divided—For the motion 15 E Against it 61 Majority for tbe motion ,.. ——94 Considerable cheering ensued upon the announcement of the division . Mr . Watson moved for and obtained leave to bring in a bill for the further repeal of enactments Imposing pains and penalties upon H « r Majesty ' s Roman Catholic subjects on account of their religion . Mr . Posei then moved for and obtaiaed leave to bring in a bill for tbe impiovement of agricultural tenant right . Mr . Hoke then moved for a return of the corporal and other punishments which had taken place ia tbe navy from tbe 1 st of January , 1811 , to the Slit of Deoember , 1816 .

    A somewhat animated discussion ensued , during which Lord John Russell intimated the readiness of the Government to give the same returns in reference to the navy as were given of corporal punishment in the army . He thought this the more proper coarse for the Admiralty to take , as mystery and concealment frequently led tbe public to believe tbat things were much worse in this respect in connection with tbe service than tbey really were . He could not , however , grant the motion of the honourable member iu the term * in wbieh it was framed . Mr . Ht'JiE then withdrew bis motion ia order so to frame it at to procure such returns as were assented to by the Government . Tbe order of tbe day for . bringing up tbe report upon the Destitute Persons ( Ireland ) Bill was then read ,, and the report whs brought up and received . Tbe report upon the Brewing from Sugar Bill , as also tbat upon tho Distilling from Sugar Bill , were then brought op and received .

    Tbe other orders of the day were disposed of and tbe House adjourned at half-put 12 o ' clock . In the House of Commons , on Wednesday , the Speaker took tbe Chair at 12 o ' clock . After a vast number of petitions in favor ot a Ten Hours Bill had been presented , Mr . Fielden moved the second reading of tbat measure . Mr . Home , after complaining of the absence of Lord John Russell , who bad promised to state his opinions on this measure on the present occasioa , declared that he could not meddle with the industry of the country in the way now proposed ; for it was a sound principle that masters and men should be left to make the best arrangements at to work and wages for themselves . The house professed to consult tbe welfare of the labouring community , but in his opinion the working classes were well able to take care of tbesaselvet . He objected to submitting human industry to a Procrustean process and to making all labourers conform to one standard without

    regard to tbeir relative powers of skill and exertion . Those who asked fer not more than ei ght or ten hours ' labour would , if tbey obtained tbe boon they sought , find it work to their own discomfiture . If the mills stopped after 10 hours'labour there would be no profit whatever on account of capital , and a surplus of labour of one hour ana a half , or perhaps two , beyond that time , was barely sufficient to obtain a remunerative return for it . If honourable gentlemen were anxious to maintain tbe superiority of England in manufactures , they must gi ' ., fair play to h sr industry and capital b y not interftr ' ( with either . If they do anything to drive capita ) fron improper employment , and to prevent the export ? , ; on 0 articles of cheap manufacture , they would I ' . ring tin labouring population to ruin by their injudirj oug jnter ference . He suspected that the eatery in f " 0 { thb bill was got up by a set of individuals wb Were more in fluenoedby a detkefor their ortM ^ oyjient . aud by adis like to labour , than by anj feelUuj . for thB rot o f ibl community . He cautioned , tfte hor ^ a ^ beware how I

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    sanctioned rash experiments of this kind now , and re . ferred to the state of Ireland as a proof of the misery which resulted from the want of employment and the ab . sence of capital . He sincerely hoped that the bouse would adopt his amendment , and read this bill a second time tbat day six months . Colonel L . Hat seconded the amendment . air G . Gmst . was willing to state at once the course which he as an individual member was prepared to pursue . He used the words "individual member , " because it was known to those who had marked the different views entertained on this question by tbe several mem . bers of tho Government , and who had heard the answer given last year by tbe Noble Lord at tbe head ot the Administration , that the Government did not feel themselves bound to an united course upon this measure . It

    bad been the full intention of Lord John Russell to be in his place at the opening of the debate , but be was unavoidably detained by public business ; however , the house might rest assured that the Noble Lord would not shrink from an explicit avowal of his opinions on this important subject . Tbe question was one not of principle , but ra * her of degree , and he admitted that it might be legitimate matter for discussion whether tbey had as yet arrived at the utmost limit to which they eould safely proceed . But when thc hon . member jtolked of consisteney , he would take leave to ask him whether it would be eonsistent to repeal the Factory Laws already passed ! That was tbe real issue of his argument , and he put it to the hon . member whether he was prepared to submit that issue plainly and decidedly to tbe house . It could not be denied tbat t >> ero was an earnest desire on the

    part of the majority of those who were employed in factories to see this matter settled by legislative enactment . On the other hand , he feared that there was a formidable and general feeling of opposition on the part of employers to any such interference . The chief argument against further legislation consisted in predictions as to the certain ruin to follow from adopting , even in a modi , fled degree , the provisions of the bill introduced by the lion , member for Oldbam . ( Hear , bear . ) Similar predictions were uttered when it was proposed to prevent the employment of children under eight years of age , and te restrict that of children between eight and twvlve , and he now asked tbe house to contrast the anticipations with the results , ( Cheers . ) In the more recent debates on that subject , the most strenuous advocates of non-interference had not asserted that the regulations

    and restrictions already existing had produced a prejudicial result , orstated that they were prepared torecom . mend their repeal . ( Hear . ) The right hon . baronet , the member for Dorchester , ( Sir James Graham ) bud distinctly admitted the benefits of past legislation . No . body could doubt those benefits es regarded children , wboso moral and Intellectual welfare had certainly been promoted . Simultaneously with increased-comfort to the workpeople , and an extension of education , there had been a great increase in the amount of production , and . tbe reports of tbe inspectors showed that manufacturing wealth had greatly accumulated . Experience , therefore , was in favour ofthe principle of the present bill . ( Hear , hear . ) The real question was , whether parliament , having taken upon itself to fix the hours during which females , young persons , and

    children , should be employed in factory labour , bad now adequately discharged its duty . With regard to children , he thought be bad done so . He thought tbat the legislature , however , had not fulfilled its duty with regard to persons between the ages of twelve and eighteen . When he saw a child lit tho age of twelve , after working only six hours a day up to that period , suddenly transferred to a class in which the employment extended over the same period as that of adults , he could not but feel that there was a defect in tbe system . He would suggest that there should be an extension of tbe period ot childhood , using that word in the sense in which it was employed in the act , and that tbe period of enjoying the benefits of education sbould be further protracted . With regard to adul ts , though there was no direct interference in tbe bill proposed , he fully admitted that if the measure passed , the hours of labour would practically be equally restricted for all classes . ( Hear , bear . ) He repeated tbat he did not believe ruin to the manufacturers was at all likely to ensue . He

    thought one result would be a more equal distribution of labour throughout tbe year ; and taking into account the energies , both of the masters and of tbe operatives , be felt that they had no cause to fear foreign competition . ( Hear , [ hear . ) He did not however agree with Mr . Fielden , in thinking that factories occasioned an excessive mortality . Last year his hon . friend had declared that he claimed for tbe members of his government free , dora of thought , expression , and action on matters of detail . ( A laugh . ) This he ( Sir G . Grey ) held to be a matter of detail , and not one ef principle . ( Hear , hear . ) He did not doubt that the coarse of the discussion would show a difference of opinion amongst the members of tbe government , For his own part , he should vote for tbe first clause of the bill , restricting ; thc hours of labour to eleven instead of twelve ; and when the bouse went into committee , he should oppose tho clause which prospectively— tbat ii , at the end of a year—limited the hours of labour to ten . ( Hear , hear , ) He could not consistently , with proper caution , go the full length proposed by tbe hon . gentleman .

    Mr . Bankes , in supporting the bill , said he believed lie was authorised in saying tbat those who sought for a Ten Hours' Bill had entered into no compromise . He called upon tbe hon . member for Durham ( Mr . Bright ) , for the sake of his onn consistency , to support this bill . On tlie 23 rd of May last year , that lion , member said in the House of Commons that '' the proper mode of proceed , ing would be for the operative * to seek by private arrangements to obtain the ten hours , wbieh he admitted they ought to have by some means or other "—( bear , hear)—and in reply to a question put to him at Manchester in December last , the hon . member said , "I am quite certain that a man who works ten hours a day is much more likely to be educated than one who works twelve hours ; I don't differ as to tbat point at all , I differ as to whether the reduction of time should be carried out

    by legislative enactment , or whether it sbould be carried out by a regulation between the operatives and the master * themselves . " New had the experiment suggested been tried since May last year , or since December last 1 and if it had not been , what chance was there that it ever would bet ( Hear , hear . ) He trusted tbat tbe circumstance of the hon . member for Durham being now a candidate for Manchester would not lose his rote to the good cause . ( Hear , and a laugh , ) He trusted that that hon . member would not draw back from the opinion he had given last session . There might be persons in Manchester whose opinions were more important than those

    of the humble operatives , whose petition had been laid upou the table ; but that circumstance , be was sere , would in no way influence tb * views of the hon . member for Durham . He was surely too honest a man to withdraw from tbe pledge he had given , and from the opinion be had so decidedly expressed that the only practical mode of carrying through this measure , was by making it an act oi the imperial legislature . ( Hear , bear . ) The millovrners said that usage and habit had accomodated themselves to the long hours of laboar . The same plea had been offered in defence of slavery , but bad not been allowed as a sufficient reason for tbe continuance of tbat

    system . Having shown that since the comniemcement of oar legislation for tbe purpose of restricting the hours of labour tbe consumption of cotton bad increased 100 per cent , above what it was in 1821 , he called upon tbe house not to be deluded by the predictions of mischief which some ill prophets were now making . The government bad just introduced a measure for extending education throughout the country ; but tbat measure would be a nullity , and even an insult , as far as the factory la . bourers were concerned , if time were not given to them to avail themselves of the benefit of it . He , therefore , implored the house to read this bill a second time if it wished to avoid the distortion of mind as well as of body wbicb excessive work and deficient instruction were certain to produce .

    Lord J . Manners trusted that the hon . gentleman , who had vindicated himself from any possible charge of being personally interested in tbe vote be should give , would permit bim to aay that there was no bon . gentle , man in tbat house standing in less need of such a rindi . cation . ( Hear , hear . ) Unnecessary , however , as be ( Lord 3 . Manners ) considered tbat protest to be , per . haps the boa . gentleman ttould allow those who advo . cated this measure to make use of the same vindication . Until , iadeed , he bad heard tbe hou . member for Montrose say that tbe bill was supported on party grounds , he had little expected to have it declared in that bouse that there was tbe necessity , either in advocacy or in opposition , of such a superfious attestation of integrity of motive . He sbould have thought that any ono , looking back to the past history of the question would come to

    the conclusion , however hon , gentlemen might have differed in their views , that in this at least all were agreed , that never was a great question , affecting largely the policy of a country , debated more exclusively on pure , on high , and on disinterested grounds , ( Heir , bear . ) And when he tbougbt of the hundreds of thousands who in this half-century bad gone down to their graves , their hopes deferred , to their children , deputing to advocate the cause they bad advocated , —when be tbougbt of those children , who had been left to die of over-toil , and bow , orer and orer again , they bad petitioned and protested , it must undoubtedly be conceded that their conduct of this great cause bad been worthy oi this country , and worthy of the great interests involved in its satisfactory settlement . ( Hear , hear . ) It was not alone tbe soldiers who bad perished in this thirty years ' pacific war ; the generals who bad led the armies bad one by one departed . Sir R . Peel might die and bequeath tbe cont est to Sir J . Hobhouse ; Sir J . Hobhouse might ad ' ranee to a certain point , and there rest

    contented wlt ' his labours . Mr . Sadler might succeed to Sir J . HV bhouse , and fight with no apparent success ; and , after wards , tbe bead of tbe veteran Mr . Oastler might br , comc gray with years of disappointment . Lord Ashley then carried on the war to the eve of victory ; he , tQ 0 < ' . ras overcome by extraneous circumstances , and so jie ' . ded the leadership—at least in that house—to the h' jn . member for Oldham . But still , never for a mo-Nient did tbe woiking men despond or despair ; stili and always they bad manifested the same resolute will and indomitable perseverance ; and now , at the end of this Parliament , in tbe year 1817 , they had the question definitely brought before them by tbe bon . member for OUt am . He ( Lord J . Manners ) had listened with patience and attention to tbe speeches of hon . gentlemen against the bill ; and more and more had he become convinced that Lord Ashley , when deprecating , in tbe noblest language , the unparalleled act of the Government in 1811 , most truly ascribed to its real cause that infhi ence which the noble lerd was allowed to possess . " \ is possible , " hesaid , ' may , more , U il probable ( for Asi

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    effort * have been great ) , that Her Majesty ' s Ministers will be successful—that they will carry tbe day ; but for how long ? If they would render tbeir victory a lasting one , they must extinguish all the sentiments tbat gave rise to mine . " ( Hear , hear . ) In that sentence lay the secret of the indomitable will discovered , during so many years , by the working men and operatives of the north . As long as women had eyes to weep and souls to pray , as long as men had hearts to'feel , voices to utter , and hands to raise , bo long would this struggle be continued , so long would those ill-gained victories be fruitless . ( Cheers . ) And now , when the question was fully before them , let them consider were the arguments which tbey bad heard that day against the passing of the bill . The right hon . gentleman , the Secretary of State for the Home department had aptly described them as the old arguments ; but then a certain amount of novelty was to be observed in their application . There was this material difference , —that year after year , as

    the same arguments were advanced , so was their em . clency impaired . ( Cheers . ) That which was a good reason in 1814 iost all its logicol spell in 1815 ; that which carried with it conviction , or at any rate votes , in 1815 had no weight whatever in 1847 . ( Hear , hear . ) Did they recollect how Mr . Sadler bad been met upon this question by the arguments drawn from the existence of a corn law f Lord Ashley , seeing the effect of those arguments , had contributed as much as aa individual could contribute , to effect the repeal of that law by resigning bis place in the legislature , and adding the weight of his high character and name to the anti-corn law cause . That argument , however , had been reproduced . The right honourable baronet tbe member for Dorcester , however , persevered in adhering to it , when all other had failed

    him , and like the hero in the song , " Who when his legs were stricken off , He fought upon his stumps . " reproduced it even after the corn law was repealed . Did it require an argument to show tbat that fallacy was now exploded ! The various trade circulars reported that in all directions stock was accumulating in the warehouses ; yet tbe spinners and producers exhibited no relaxation in their operations , the consequence of which , at no distant day , would be a fearful reaction . Under the restrictions which had been already imposed in this respect , our manufactory industry had prospered so much that , according to Mr . Maculloch's tables , the commerce of our exportsof cotton goods , fir instance—had increased from seventeen millions in 1832 to twenty millions in 1812 . If the

    premises of , tbe Manchester school of political economy as to the reduction in tbe price of food and the extension of foreign trade . were correct , then the operatives of the manufacturing districts were entitled more especially to tbe justice which they had so long demanded . Tbe opinion of the established clergy , of thedissenting ministry , of tbe medical men throughout the manufacturing districts—all of them most competent and impartial witnesses—was distinctly that a diminution of the hours of labour was essential to the spiritual and physical health of the operatives in those districts . They thus bad the question plaeed before them in every possible form . They had seen tbe mortality amongst children in the factory districts . They had heaid that the homes in those places were left desolate and unguarded during the hours of labour . Tbey had

    seen Saxon matrons , like the Pilgrim mother of old , walling for their children , and refusing to be comforted because they are not , ( Cheers . ) They had seen the cradle rifled of its darling pleasures—the fuaer & l decked with white , showing that the little departed being had been saved from prolonged and heavy toil , and had gone to join the army of innocents—( cheers)—and he asked whether a ease not been made fully out to the house for the passing of the bill ? It had bf . en said that they should rely upon an arrangement being made between the masters and tbe men ; but he repeated what had been said upon a recent occasion in Manchester , that it was vain to make and to lay out parks for the recreation of the working classes , and to establish Athenteums with lectures for their amusement aud information , if they did

    not also provide for them boors of leisure during which they could enjoy them . But in fact they were all agreed about tbe end to be desired , tbey only differed about tbe means for its attainment . It was only the mode which he advocated that was objected to , jAnd , for his part , if he could only hear of any other way—if he could only see any other mode of reducing tbe hours of labour—if he could only hear of it , say , a thousand masters in Lancashire signing a bond to require only ten hours of labour in the day , and a quarter of a million of money being subscribed to the agreement , by way of guarantee to ensure its suecess ( hear , hear ) , he might believe that the foundation bad in fact been laid for some such satisfactory arrangement . He had heard , indeed , of large funds being raised by those gentlemen , but not

    to carry such a measure to a successful issue . No ; buj to gratify tbe pride , and probably tbe laudable pride , 0 ) the masters of those workmen . But he would not advise the men to relax tbeir exertions upon the chance of any such arrangement , unless they had ample security that it would be carried out . No , no . A great question , such as tbe one before the house , affecting as it did the quality of the country—affecting as it did the moral and mental culture of the people of the country—should not be left to tbe remote possibility of such unexampled private arrangements . The house did not wait until tbe rival companies who navigated tbe Thames had agreed amongst themselves to regulate the speed of tbeir steamers in tbe Pool , to adopt measures compelling them to do so , supposing the step to be necessary .

    Neither did they wait until the master builders had come to some arrangement for the improvement in the erection of their dwellings . Nor did they wait until the master chimney sweeps had Agreed to abstain from the employment in their business of climbing boys . They did not wait until the proprietors of collieries and mines had agreed no mere to use half naked women , harnessed like beasts of burden , to drag coal-waggons into the mines ; nor did they wait until the slave-owners ia the West Indies could have made some arrangement with tbeir slaves for their emancipation . ( Cheers . ) Nor did tbey in tun thousand other instances wait for the parties concerned to arrange between themselves ; but the bousa stepped in , and used the imperial majesty of tbe law , in which all should bow . As bad been said by Hooker , tbe

    highest was not exempt ft om her power . The majesty of the law was still the mightiest , and she vindicated her right to watch over tbe properties , tbe lives , and the happiness of all tbe subjects of her empire . It was of no use to say , as seme honourable members said , that tbey objected upon principle to the measure . How rould tbey do so after oil that had been done—after all the measures in which they vtere even now interfering , and those in which they would still continue to interfere ! Could the honourable member for Montrose , or the school of philosophy to which he belonged , persuade poverty to rely upon wealth ? Could he persuade weakness to place itself at the mercy of power 1 Could be persuade men tbat kings and governments and legislatures had been established iu order to do nothing ! Why , an governments , in all period , of tbe world ' s history , bad

    interfered to watch over and protect the humblest and tbe weakest of their subject * . All past legislation in this direction had been productive of good effect : let no time be lost in completing the great work , He rejoiced infinitely that Edinburgh and its eloquent member , aad its blue and buff Review , that powerful organ of a learned philosophy , were wholly with the advocates sf tke limitation of hours of labour . But , whatever the fate of this measure , it would be his gratifying reflection that he and the Tory gentlemen of England bad constantly maintained tbeir historical position —( a laugh)—bad fought tbe good fight of tbe poor against the richof the weak against the strong ; and , to the best of their ability , had wielded the power vested in them to protect and defend tke working classes of this country . ( Hear . )

    The Cbakcbllo * of the Excbbqubb was of opinion that the house could not inflict a greater injury on the working man than by acceding to the motion of Mr , Fielden . lie looked upon this bill as nothing else but a measure for limiting the time of labour for adults to ten hours a day . He was as ready as any man to ' premote the intellectual and moral improvement of the poor ; but it would be an injury to them to do it at the expense of one-sixth of their incomes , and tbat would be the effect of the present measure . His conviction was , that tbe working men , if they chose , had the power to shorten tbe time of their own labour . An offer had been made to them by some large millonner * at Halifax to work short time ; provided tbat none of them would desire te work long time ; and the result was that in Kino different milts the workmen came to a resolution that the long hours were preferable ,

    Mr . iltJNTZ rose amidst loud calls for a division , and said , that it was well known that ever since be had bad the honour of holding a seat in Parliament he had in . variably ftiven his support te this bill , and be rose on this occusiwn to say , tbat having heard many strange state , mentt respecting masters and workmen , when this bill was last before tbe house , he had taken an opportunity a few weeks ago of going to Manchester , and seeing with his own eyes , and hearing with bis own ears , —having a greater respect and confidence in them than for those of anybody else—( a laugh)—what was the real state of things in the cotton factories there ; and be was bound to say that all the changes which he fouad to have taken place ia Manchester in the production of goods . since be had last visited a factory , twenty years ago , seemed to

    him to operate to the disadvantage of the operatives . One alUraUoa was , tbat the speed of tbe machinery was doubled , and in many instauces trebled . Thenthe num . ber of spindles wbieh each girl had to mind was double , and in many instaneee treble , what it used to be , —and tbe quantity of work done was three times more than previously , although the labour o ! tbe pa es might bo something less ou the whole . But , as a ractical man , he could say , that the more spiud es these females bad given them to miad , and the quicktr they revolved , the more trouble was given them . The homo must remem . ber that it was with women and children that this bill was to deal ; it was their case tbe house was considers ing ; and he wanted to know how far such labour was

    fit for such persons . It was said that it was not bar ** , labour . Granted tbat it was not hard . Still , w *» th ' . re an hon . gentleman in the house who , if h « had , to tr avel over the slippery floor of a room , the atinospr ere oi which was heated to the extent of front 70 uee to SO deg ., for 13 hours , Would not think it verv tiresome ! Whoever looked at these poor girls and mark eQ their pale unhealthy , emaciated appearance , cooAu - not help feeling tbat it was a disgrace to their emnto , , g and to the plac . they hvett in , that they should be reduced by their daily abour to such a state , and he , ( Ur . Muntz ) 88 td th * legislature was bound toaeutbat those young personi h- ad an amount of work glvea them and an atmospben to do it in suitable to thrir age and conditio . If bon members were | b , \ rt n . p . BU day long in a roem with ai

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    atmosphere at 80 deg . or 90 deg . they would soon become emaciated , even without any work to do . This occudT tionandthe mode of it were the reason wh y you nsver saw tbe face of a health y looking operative girl i n Man Chester —( hear , hear , )—and tbat it was the fact „« " could state , for he had observed it himself only a hi weeks ago . ( "Hear , hear , " fiom Mr . Bri ght . ) Wbv did the bon . member think , that aobod y but a cottar ! manufacturer could tell when a woman looked healthy * ( Loud laughter . ) How was it tbat the Iron , member ( Mr . Bright ) bod been the advocate of a Ten Hours' Bill and ia the year 1833 had even got up and paid the ex ! penses of a petition in favour of the measure I ( Bear * hear . ) Why should the hon . member then be an advo ! cete for ten hours , and now insist that if the houjenj ,, * .

    this change tbey would destroy tbe interests of the cot . ton trade , and net only tbat , but the interests of these poor people ! But the hon . member let the cat out of the bag , for he said tbat the manufac turers would only want more capital to be able to do the same quantity of work in the diminished time he ( Mr . Muntz ) would ask how many hours in a series ' of ten years were worked on an average per day through , out that time ! ( Hear , hear . ) He believed tbatno master manufacturer in the country had worked ten hours a day on the average of the last ten years . ( Hear , hear . ) n was true there were manufacturers who sometimes worked twelve or thirteen hours a day for a while and then were forced to consign the goods so produced to China , or some foreign county , at a great lots thers

    being no demand iu this country for the overplus thm produced . In fact , he had always thought that the worst opponents of the manufacturers were tbemselrej Still It was said that if this reduction of the time of la ! hour took place , there would be a reduction of wages in proportion . Had tbat taken place in other cases in which tbe Legislature had interfered ? Did not tbe Legistura interfere and introduce limitations and restrictions of various kinds into other occupations t Did they not limit the number of people whs rode inan omnibus ? Did they not limit the price of the charge for a cab f ( Laughter . ) In hundreds of other things they interfered in the same or some similar way , and no reduction in wages took place . If there were to be no interference in

    this case , on the ground tbat tbey would not interfere with labour , why , they must allow every man to grow his own tobacco . ( A laugh . ) The wages had gone on increasing , although the Legislature had to some extent interfered , and though tbe time worked was diminished . He believed , and he asked any hon . member connected with the cotton manufacture to contradict him if he were wrong , that the alteration * which had been made iuthe mode of production was so great tbat the quantity produced had increased to fire times what it was then . Vow , that being the case , he must say that it seemed very strange that the value of the goods produced should have diminished by one-third ; it was quite contrary to the doctrines of tbe " feelosophem , " ( A laugb . ) There was a curious fact which he bad been told with

    respect to operative cotton spinners . Some one observed to him in Manchester , that a cotton spinner never died ( for that by the time he arrived at 10 or 45 years , such an effect was produced on his eyes by the small particles of cotton , that he soon became disabled from working any longer ; and he was sure , therefore , to be got rid of for some reaion or other . That had been represented to bim ; and it was a most important matter for the house' to consider / ( Hear , hear . ) When ho ( Mr , Muntz ) was at Manchester , on walking through one of tbe cotton mills , he found the atmosphere very disagreeable , and the whole place like a hothouse , and he consequently asked nby they did not open the windows . He was first told tbat it would not be qui t * so

    well to have tbe windows open ; and when he asked why not , and whether it would not be quite at well for the health of the workpeople , he at last got at the fact tbat they would not be quite so well able to spin cotton in a lower atmosphere . It appeared , therefore , to be neces . sary to this manufacture to keep all these poor girls all day long suffering from a state of perspiration , from which , and from being obliged to go home iu a state of relaxation and lassitude , all manner of diseases befell tbem , and , in fact , they became deteriorated both in bedy and mind . He had stated the general results of the inspectiou of these mills that be had made in Man-Chester , and , cot having any interest in manufactures , he trusted be was able to form a correct view .

    Mr . Bright , in reply to the attacks made upon him from various quarter * , reminded the house that he hal lived all bis life among the population for which it was now called upon to legislate , and that he was therefore well able to describe , and to judge of , their feelings , withes , and true interests . He denounced the object of the proposers ot this bill as an interference with persons of every sex and age engaged in manufactures , and as an attempt to give to all classea a legislative protection , by which they might diminish the amount of labour and increase the rate of w « g » s . He should be the last person to lay that tbe reasonable wishes of the workpeople should uot receive due attention ; and in this respect he would go further then tbe hon . member for Dorsetshire , for ha was prepared to give them votes , by

    which they would be enabled to send men to that home te represent tbeir feelings and wishes . ( Hear , hear *) The people were taught to believe , by Mr . Oastler , and others who were favourable to this measure , and by " The Short-Time Advocate , " or " The Tea Hours Advocate , " that tbe consequence of limiting the hours of labour would—as in tbe case of other articles—by lessening the supply , enhance the value—(•• hsar , hear , " from Mr . Ferrand )—aad the hon . member for Knaresborough appeared to be of tbe same opinion . ( Hear . ) But itwas afact that you could not reduce the hour * of labour but five minutes a day , without reducing in the same proportion tbe production of the Bill , The hon , member for Birmingham had charged him with getting up a petition in favour of the hours of

    labour . That was one of the follies of his boyhood —( a laugh)—and he regretted to see that those weaknesses and follies of bit youth teemed to attach themselves to the hon . member for Birmingham in his mature years , ( "Oh , " and a laugh . ) The proposition to compromise the matter by an eleven hours' bill , he was equally opposed to . He was astonished at tbe conduct of tbe ministry on this question . Was tbis a subject to be left as an open question by a government ! For his part , be looked upon it as a question net inferior in importance to that which had been setiled by Sir R . Peel last year . ( Hear . ) That was a question to raise rents by raiting the price of food , and this was a measure to raise wages

    at the expense ot the capitalist . Ia both cases it was the same principle tbat was involved . ( Hear , hear . ) It was the duty of tbe noble lord at tbe head of the government , if he was convinced that the principle of tbe measure was just , to go to it manfully , and call upon his subordinates to go with him . If the noble lord sup . ported it be should make it a cabinet question , and let the government of the country take upon itself the responsibility of this enormous change . If , however , the noble lord was not prepared to take the responsibility of the change ; if he thought it a dangerous experiment , the whole weight of the government should be given to the opposition of the bill . Sir A . L . H * 1 moved the adjournment of the debate .

    Lord J . Russell : I rise merely to say a few words , in eonssquence of the attack wbicb has been made upon me by the hon . member for Durham . ( Cheer * . ) Now I do not happen to agree with him , that thi * is so great a que * - tion of principle as be supposes . I do not conceive that the difference between twelve hours and eleven hours , or eleven hours and ten hours'labour in the day , is a question of principle . ( Hear , hear . ) The question of limiting the hours of labour for person * between the ages of thirteen and eighteen is aow a new principle . It it one that has been affirmed by the house if I remember rightly , on the proposition ef Lord Althorp—and i * san » - tioned by the statutes of tbe realm . ( Cheers . ) There is , then , no new principle , sought to be introduced by this law , ( Hear , hear . ) Whether the limit should be thirteen , twelve , eleven , or ten hours a day—and that I call a question of detail on which tbe several member * of

    a government may fairly differ , without at the same time differing in principle . ( Hear , hear . ) I consider that the period during which young persons now labour in factories being twelve hour * or in all thirteen or fourteen hours a day is too much for tbeir bodily frame , and too much also for tbat moral aud mental improvement which , during that period of life , ought to be attained . ( Hear , beor . ) Believing , then , that a shorter period would be a preferable limit , am I to be deterred from adopting it by that which the bon . gentleman has put

    forward as a very formidable objection—the fear ef foreign competition f I feel greatly comfortedbj tbe f « et that though the same fears of distress and ruin to our manufacturers have been repeatedly urged against every change that has been made—urged in 1831 , urged in 183 % and urged again | in 183 S—those fears have never been realized —( cheers)—but that on the contrary , notwitbstondingthe changes our manufacturer * havo continued to flourish , while those young persona , on whose beh » l ' parliament has interfered , have bes » benefited . ( Hear , hear . )

    Thequestion of adjournment *** tt « ro put and carried , the debate being understood , to stand adjourned till Wednesday next , ^ No business of important * was , transacted by the House of Lords on Thursday . In tbe House of Common * lord J . Rumsll , in answer to Mr . Roebuck , aa ' . d it was the intention of tht government that th » kill fjr granting loans to the lantcd . proprietors of Ireland for the improvement of the * estates , andth * | ri » b roor law Bill , should pass Vfcu several stagea » snv ariy in succession as possible tawch other , so that thf y tuight reach the House of Lo * d * on , tbo same day , v . with onl oneiutervening , if possible ,

    RAILWAT ( iKELAND ) BILL . —On Lewd . J . os ' . < Russsu ^ motion for going to the order * of the daj , gn » nita * itd digciMsioH arose «» to proceeding wi *> t jj e s « oud reading of Lord George Benliuck ' * . Rattr ' aj for I celand ; Mr . Smith O'Brien urging delay on the Bfouud that , if , the second reading wert OHWi *' ' j aur « ely ' to ministers , before the remedial measure . * now y , efoTe Parliament were passed , the consequenow ^ uij D , oies * disastrous forilreland . LordJonn Rossell being now , a « r ie wa , 0 rigio » Hji wholly opposed to the Bill , asinterfe' j „ g auogather ni'h ( Continued to the lf jt pagej

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• Citation
  • Northern Star (1837-1852), Feb. 13, 1847, page 8, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse-os.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/ns2_13021847/page/8/