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    June 8, 1850.] JK If t ILt a & t V? 243

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    Partiamjent. The Motion For Going Into C...

    to be possessed of all the learning and information on the subject ( Cheers ') , decided the other way , did the right reverend prelate think that a very ready acquiescence on the part of the public or the clergy would be given { Hear . ) It was obviously the intention of the founders of the Church to allow a certain latitude in religious opinion . Any attempt to recede from that -wise policy would be an invitation to dissension , and fatal to the interests of the Church . A decision by such a tribunal as the one proposed might bind the Church for a moment , but would soon give rise to further and more dangerous agitations . He concluded by moving that the bill be read a second time that day six months .

    Lord Brougham was opposed to the principal provision of the bill , which would make the decision of the prelates binding upon the Judicial Committee ; but he thought that some attempt should be made to prevent the extension of that schism which now existed in the Church . He suggested that the prelates should choose three or four of their number , whose opinion should be reported to the Judicial Committee , to aid them in informing the consciences of the committee in arriving at a final decision . He was against the bill as it stood , believing it to be perilous in the extreme ; but he hoped that something would be done to heal the existing breach in the Church .

    The Bishop of St . David s was sorry that he could not conscientiously support the bill . It seemed to him that such a measure would only afford a new arena for theological controversies . They must not shut their eyes to the fact that there was a class of persons who looked to a disruption of Church and State as a less evil than the failure of their own schemes for the improvement of the Church ; and that another class was actually in favour of such a disruption from a belief that it would pave the way to a junction of the Church of England with the Church of Rome . Divide et impera was a maxim of the Roman Church , and he feared that something of the same kind was arising in the English Church .

    Lord Redesdale supported the bill . He referred to the late decision of the Judicial Committee as having been received with satisfaction by Dissenters and Roman Catholics . Such a bill as the one proposed was the only chance of obtaining a satisfactory decision on questions such as those which had recently arisen . There was no religious body in the country that would submit to such interference as that which the Church was now obliged to endure . Lord Campbell did not look upon the question

    before them as one of mere party , but as a great constitutional question . Could he have done so conscientiously , he would gladly have supported the bill ; but , as it appeared to him a most unconstitutional measure , and one tending to bring about that very disruption of the church which it was its professed object to prevent , he felt bound to oppose it . Much fault had been found with the present constitution of the Judicial Committee , and there would have been some ground for the objections made had that body been invested with the power to lay down canons for the Church . But it was merely a court

    of construction . Its duty was to explain the meaning and tendency of legal documents ; and he had no hesitation in saying that it was better qualified to explain the meaning of the laws and liturgies of the church than a court formed from the bench of right reverend prelates opposite . He objected to the bill on account of its interference with the royal prerogative . It was admitted that the monarch was the head of the Church of England , but by the bill before them the supremacy would be vested in the bishops , the Queen having only to record their decisions . The tribunal now proposed would be the ruin of the church , by leading to endless division and

    controversy : — " It was to consist of an assemblage of twenty-seven bishops from the provinces of Canterbury and York , with the Bishop of Sodor and Man , but without any provision for the Irish bishops being represented . As the right reverend prelate had said there could be no court without lawyers , and therefore there were to be lawyers admitted . Counsel were to be heard on both sides ; and , after having heard them , the twenty-seven members of the court were to consult together and give their decision .

    Now , if there were even a provision in the bill that their judgment should be unanimous , he would agree to the second reading . But it was by the majority that the decision was to be given , and the minority was to be held up to public obloquy , for the names , and opinions , and votes of all were to be reported . The appointment of such a tribunal would , he thought , be most injudicious . It would lead to agitation , and finally to the disruption of the church ; and for these reasons he should most decidedly oppose it . "

    Lord Lyttelton supported the bill , as a measure for carrying out the settlement made at the Reformation . Much was said about the evils to be apprehended from the operation of the bill , but they must not shut their eyes to the evils which must arise from letting things remain as they are . The Earl of Chichester opposed the bill , because it would make a complete change in the Constitution , and he could see no reason for making such a change : — " It was understood to be the professed object of the

    leaders of a particular party to make this bill instrumental in ousting from the church a body of clergy , whom he believed to be amongst the purest in their lives , the roost earnest in the discharge of their duty , and the most faithful in preaching the doctrines of the Gospel . " Lord Stanley regretted that the Marquis of Lansdowne , as the organ of Government , had placed his absolute veto on a measure tending to obviate the evils now distracting the church . At this moment the Church of England was placed in a worse condition than that of any religious body upon the face of the globe—that she had in herself no authoritative means of declaring through her recognized organs , her leaders and heads , what her doctrines really were .

    Admitting the difficulty , recognizing the impossibility , of summoning a convocation of the clergy to explain and expound the doctrine and teaching of the Church of England , he would not admit that it was right or just to deprive the clergy of any means of authoritatively setting forth the doctrines of their church . Seeing , then , an acknowledged grievance , threatening serious evils if not remedied , he regretted that Government should be so unwilling to enter into a consideration of the remedy suggested : —

    " He did not sympathize with those who , finding that the Church of England was too much hampered and fettered by her connection with the state , and was unable authoritatively to declare her doctrines and her principles , on that account were ready to separate from the communion of that church with whom they held the fundamental doctrines in common ; but he could not conceal his apprehension that that feeling did largely and widely

    exist , and he thought that if , by rejecting this bill upon the second reading-, refusing altogether the consideration of the question , the House determined to apply no remedy , and to seek to do nothing to relieve the grievance of which many and most attached churchmen loudly , and as he conceived justly complained , we should run the risk of separating , from the communion of the church so fettered and controlled by the state a number of its ablest and most devoted members . "

    He did not say that the bill * was perfect , but he saw an evil to be grappled with , and , rather than have no measure at all , he would take the bill in its present state . Lord Harkowby thought the safest course would be to leave things as they are . If a heresy was not such as could be made patent to four or fiveimpartial judges accustomed to judicial investigations—if it required a practised , professional , theological eye to discover it , it had better be left alone . The Bishop of Oxford contended that those who opposed the bill had not fairly grappled with the question : —

    " There was a truth revealed at first , which could be neither added to nor diminished till the end of time ; and to preserve that deposit of truth , by an authority more than human , a certain body was constituted—the laity and clergy of the Church—who received a certain written revelation , with power to draw out creeds and articles , not to establish new doctrines , but to maintain old truths when they were impugned . He would

    remind noble lords of the time when the Christian Church assembled at Nice , and a discussion took place between Anus and Athanasius , to decide what was the meaning of the word * Son . ' That question was settled by those who had been trained in such niceties , and who bore the commission which was borne by the Church in this land . Now , ho would ask noble lords whether they would be content to have the issue of such a question decided by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council ?"

    The peculiar feature of the present day was not so much a great affection for dogmas as an impatience of all control and of all iixeel truth , and if their Lordships did away with the Church's office as the declarer of truth , they would do more to help forward that disbelief in all fixed eternal truth than by anything else they could do . He warned them against such , a course as would lead to a schism like that which took place in Scotland : —

    " Let them beware , ere it was too late , of rending England by such a separation . There were those whom their lordships' vote to-night might dissever from the church of England . If those parties would listen to his advice , their lordships' vote would be altogether innocuous , for he would say to them , ' Be patient , be firm , and truth will prevail . ' But he begged their lordships to beware how they threw temptation in the way of such persons . If by their vote to-night they led to the establishment in England of a free episcopal churc ; i , did they think that they would strengthen the other institutions of the country ? { Hear , hear . ) He almost feared that there was here and there a desire to see such an object accomplished . He could not sympathize with such a feeling . Loving the Church of England , and believing her to be unnumbered

    the chiefest blessing among blessings enjoyed by this happy land , —believing that in that Church they had the bulwark of England ' s throne , and one of the surest guards of English liberty , he could not lightly see a measure rejected which he considered might tend to her disseverence . They would drive from her men of tender conscience and of loving spirit , while they might keep in her men who valued the rank that attended her offices , and the position in society which her ministers possessed . They would weaken the church to her enemies , they would impair her in her highest vocation . The Earl of Carlisle objected to the bill before them because it touched upon the Queen s supremacy , and because he did not think the most impartial bench of bishops would be th e , best tribunal

    to decide questions deeply affecting the property , the rights , the interests , the incumbencies , the livelihood , and the caste of individuals . With reference to the threat of a disruption : — " It was his conviction that the church of England , in these days , if she was content to remain , with reference to the state and with reference to the community at large , in the position she inherited—if she betrayed no symptoms of aggression , of a desire to grasp at new powers —was in a condition of rapidly increasing influence and immense actual power—( Hear , / tear ) - Everywhere , throughout the length and breadth of the land , her churches , her chapelsand her schools were rising up , and her children

    , increasing around them . In the words of the promise which it was her office to promulgate , « m quietness and confidence should be her strength for ever . ' On the other hand , if she gave rise to well-founded suspicions of an intention to encroach upon the functions and attributes of theother constituted powers of thestate—if she assumed privileges and preferences which were not clearly her own ; if she sought to acquire pecuniary resources from the national funds , and to be clothed with power which did not by law belong to her , then a more than corresponding ratio of the influence and power which he had attributed to her in her political quiescence would be , in his apprehension , her impotence and failure . "

    The Bishop of London briefly replied . With reference to the argument that the questions of false doctrine which would be frequently referred to the proposed tribunal would involve questions of property as well , inasmuch as the parties were holders of benefices , it must be remembered , that if they held benitices they held them upon condition of preaching the truth as it was taught in the church of England . The Duke of Cambridge in stating that he intended to vote for the bill , said he was actuated solely by religious and conscientious motives . The House having divided , the numbers were—For the second reading , 51—Against it , 84 : Majority 33

    A discussion on the Irish Poor Law took place in the House of Commons on Tuesday evening . The question was introduced by Mr . F . French , who contended that , in every respect , that measure had been a complete failure . When first introduced , they were told that the annual expenditure would not exceed £ 280 , 000 ; last year it exceeded £ 2 , 176 , 000 . The rate of increase in the expenses of some of the unions had been most extraordinary ; in the Ballina union they had , in two years , increased from £ 2939 to £ 52 , 282 . He concluded by moving the following series of resolutions : —

    " That it is the opinion of this House that no permanent system for the relief of the poor in Ireland can be carried out safely and beneficially to receivers or ratepayers , without a return to the principle of the original poor-law of 1838 , by the strict application of in-door relief to all classes of paupers . " That the system of appointment of vice-guardians with unconstitutional and unlimited powers of taxation has proved most objectionable , and should be forthwith abolished . ' That the present system of the administration of the poor-law in Ireland is unnecessarily extravagant , unsuitcd lo the diminished resources of that country , and tends considerably to the demoralization of the people .

    " That it is unjust to throw on one species of property , and that the most suffering , the entire support of the poor in Ireland . " Lord Naas , in seconding the motion , called attention to the fact that all children above fifteen years of age were placed indiscriminately with adults of their own sex , from which as he alleged , the most fearful contamination had resulted . There were , at presentno less than 119 , 000 children , under the age

    , of fifteen , in the workhouses , all of whom would , in their turn , be subjected to the evils arising from compulsory communication with the most abandoned of their sex . By order of the commissioners , girls of fifteen were drafted among the able-bodied women , who were almost all prostitutes . The result was that they were continually travelling in a vicious circle , from the workhouse to the brothel , and from , the brothel to the workhouse .

    Sir Wiixiam Somerville opposed the resolutions on the ground that they were not supported by fact , and because nothing had been said as to how they were to provide for the poor , in the event of such a calamity as that which lately befel Ireland . As regards the condition of the people , he was glad to say that it had much improved . The number of out-door paupers in the week ending on Saturday ,

    the 12 th of May , 1849 , was 613 , 908 ; on the week ending the 11 th of May , 1850 , the number was 125 , 215 , showing a decrease of 388 , 693 , or , rather , more than three-fourths . There had also been a reduction in the charge for maintaining the poor in the workhouses . The average weekly charge for food for each , on the ilth of May , 1849 , was Is , 2 £ d . j this year , for the corresponding week , it was only Is . He trusted that the House would support him in

    resisting the resolutions . Colonel Dunne dwelt upon the enormous falling off in the Irish rental , and contended that , until the management of the affairs of Ireland were entrusted to herself , there would be no means of providing foi the poor without applications to Government . He supported the motion , though it did npt go nearly f « enough ,

    June 8, 1850.] Jk If T Ilt A & T V? 243

    June 8 , 1850 . ] JK If t ILt a & t V ? 243

• Citation
  • Leader (1850-1860), June 8, 1850, page 3, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse-os.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/l/issues/cld_08061850/page/3/